This is a very brief and technically shattered note on an incisive question raised by Undercurrent on what has already been entitled The Chronic. I think the true part of the answer should be opened and investigated carefully in the next chapters of the Islamic Chronopolytics series. This is just an introductory note for later answers, so it is not devoid of rushed and confusing remarks.
Round 1:
u/c: As the compounding of interest is a motif of K+ period-doubling time, I wonder what we can make of the islamic prohibition on charging interest, in relation to your exposition of these chronopolitics? Is this a calming or warding-off mechanism, or what?
R: Well, for starting a discussion I should say that there are no such prohibitions as you read or hear about on technical / financial / economic / banking levels in Islamic countries. I do not know about all Islamic countries but at least know enough about such prohibitions in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Egypt to give you an ‘unsatisfying’ and ‘inaccurate’ answer:
Modern banking in Egypt almost follows the western patterns so it is not in our Islamic category in this respect. Saudi Arabia is fundamentalist and uses these prohibitions against charging interests, Riba (both Riba al-Nasee and Riba al-Fadhl) etc. Iran is fundamentally something else:
In Aug. 1983, after some disastrous failures in Central Bank (based on revolutionary anti-capitalist / anti-market / anti-foreign investment laws which actually cut off the country from the western world), an Usury-Free Banking Act which included less prohibitions against charging interests was finally ratified and accepted by the parliament but it did not went into effect until 1984. The main goal of reducing these prohibitions was to reach a dynamic economy affording the cost of the War and filling the gaps it opened in various levels of society; using the monetary tools to support the islamic objectives of Iran both inside and outside the country (in Lebanon for example) and preserving the value of Iran’s national currency and balancing it according to the huge public sector debt consists of interest-free loans owed to the Central Bank, or low-interest-bearing obligations to the nationalized banks. In 1984 laws of charging interests and investment, there is a highly ambiguous point; the law neither defined usury / interest (Riba al-Nasee and Riba al-Fadhl), nor did it distinguish it from normal bank interest (bahrih). Interest was replaced by profit and loss sharing arrangements between the bank and its depositors and borrowers according to a pre-scripted formula. No party was to be a debtor or creditor, but only a ‘partner’ in joint projects. However, lacking the experience of working with this kind of obscure Islamic system of interest, or as what here mockingly called ‘Islamic Riba’ the banks network and central bank at the center of this network lost both their former economic vibrancy and profitability as the result of working in this both quasi-islamic and obscurely twisted western economic trend towards interest (running at an interest rate collar i.e. oscillating between maximum and minimum interest rates through the combination of caps and floors). Remaining Islamic in name (also keeping certain prohibitions) and working with mutilated western / capitalist economic mechanisms in regard to interests, the banks lost even their primary designation. The interest rate merely renamed to ‘provisional (interim) rate of profit’ and the interest charged to bank debtors turned into ‘minimum expected rate of profit on granted facilities.’
But due to:
(1) the imbalance between ex-ante interest and ex-post profit (both in some way still restricted by Islamic prohibitions towards a fully western trend of charging interests; and as a result of ignoring the ‘profit-loss’ homeostatic stability (or as one may put it, an excessive risk-free profit, arbitrage as Ilinski [1] elaborates it, system) of a bank in a period of time [A Year]),
(2) the incompatibility between ‘islamic’ mechanisms of charging interest and the slump or boom years in economy and finally (among many other factors),
(3) the huge waste on annual budget on powerful economic entities like ‘Seda va Sima’ (TV & Radio), ‘Azad (free) University’ and those educational and research centers doing double-work (in terms of their redundancy) on ‘Islamic propagation’, etc. (all receiving a significant share from the annual budget),
the islamic banking system has been totally incapacitated and cannot direct micro-economic entities according to the economy of the State or transfer the power of the State’s economic ownership to micro-entities (including families, organizations, etc.) that means the maneuverability of the Islamic State on the economic front has been sabotaged by its rules from within (endogenously prepared into an unstable position from the beginning i.e. prior to its installation and even its functioning as Didier Sornette in his Econophysical work [2] points out about the underlying mechanism of majority of economic crashes), exhausted by the islamic political / economic prohibitions (which are inevitability combine with the western trends but in a very twisted [potentially rich in giving rise to unreported and cryptogenic economic diseases]) which are superficially political but subterraneously ‘polytical’ as they release insurgencies (disloyal to both the State and themselves) running at the edge of terminal multiplicities, epidemics.
One of the symptoms of this incapacitation for the state’s economic power, its authority of imposing prohibitions, feeding and being fed, and banking system is the emergence of private ‘homemade banks’ (as in the case of homemade semi-automatic weapons); the statistical reports (2002) show that there is one interest-based homemade bank among 18 families (considering the fact that Islamic countries are entirely family-oriented and local reports always cover up what is happening beneath the surface), and 6 families are connected to such homemade banks which evade homogenization; moreover, there is no relevant distribution of connectivity among these micro-economic swarms (which are expendable yet never exhausted or grow old and decrepit), consequently, they never take the network dynamism that is essential for invoking ‘developing structures’ (from which the State can be fueled) and centric spaces which consolidate these entities or distribute them over economic factions (what usually happens for private banking). In the wake of the economic poverty in recent years, economic decline of the State, sudden contact with global currents, low rate of income, etc, these homemade banks have become so popular, quite powerful / insurgent economic entities that recklessly undermine the State’s economic power and authorship, as well, the social economic grid from which they emerge. People usually receive a profit 3.5-4 times more than the bank’s ordinary rate of profit. These homemade banks are more profit-based than the traditional usury-based systems in Arabic countries; hardly you can find a homemade bank giving loan but you can invest money in these homemade banks and harvest a profit 3.5-4 times more than bank’s rate of provisional profit. However, the true power of these epidemic homemade banks is still not clear, and their catastrophic influence on the State’s economy (oscillating between Islamic economy / prohibitions and western capitalism) requires a deserving investigation. Homemade banks (which are also very popular in Saudi Arabia) re-invent capitalism from the other side of the Capital in Islamic countries, and in connection to the Islamic State and its intrinsic / internal economic incapacitation (that is to say including its prohibitions); but what they propagate is not a “capital-feeding-itself” but an autophagic capital, diseased in terms of awakening anomalies and new lines of collapse.
Round 2:
u/c: I knew that the prohibitions on interest had many bypass-routes, my
initial question was about the meaning of the prohibition itself rather
than its application (why does the prohibition form a part of
submission).
R:Yes, I know; it was just an introduction on these prohibitions in islamic countries. Don’t know if you are familiar with the Quranic account of interest (riba); this is a very crude / typically Islamic paper (on Allameh Parwez book) but is a very helpful introduction on some of the Quranic elements of these prohibitions and why they are supposed to ‘maintain a dynamic but tranquilized capital’; guess these introductions are necessary before we start our actual discussion on currency / Interest / Islam which sounds very crucial:
QURAN’S SYSTEM OF ECONOMICS (Introductory)
Is Islamic banking a challenge to ‘western-style’ capitalism?
NOTE
[1] Kirill Ilinski in Physics of Finance: Gauge Modeling in Non-Equilibrium Pricing (John Wiley & Sons, 2001) explores the connectivity and multiple links between the mechanism of interest rate and charging interest in finance to ‘Time component of connection’ in spatio-temporality. Interest rate, Ilinski insists, is the translation of spatio-temporal connectivity in physics.
The risk-free profit can be minimally formulized as:
(r = interest rate; “F is amount of money is to be received in T years’ time”; “NPV(F) is the sum of money P (principal) which, if invested today, would generate the compound amount F in T years' time”)
Dt or T-year discount factor, or the discount procedure “plays the role of a ‘parallel transport’ of an amount of money through time (though in fixed currency).” (Ilinski) What makes the interest-rate a preferred feeding ground for capital is its foundational characteristic to render a specialized Time-horizon/connectivity for currency which has chronopolitical tendencies of its own, more working with time and its spatio-temporal relations rather than economic factors.
[2] Didier Sornette, Why Stock Markets Crash: Critical Events in Complex Financial Systems, Princeton University Press, 2002.
u/c, sorry I was going to post this sooner but I’m lazy as a primitive amphibian these days (+ don’t forget the Old Ones’ plague) ... this version contains some updates (statistical updates and marginal notes)
But as mentioned, I’ll try to open your question as a fundamental part of the next chapters in the chronopolytics series.
00515=©EVOLUTIONARY DEVELOPMENT
00515=©RECTITUDE OF THE MOTHER EARTH
00515=QURAN’S SYSTEM OF ECONOMICS
©The Path of Venus Over the Face of the Sun, Carlos Barrios, Mayan Ajq'ij
http://www.greatmystery.org/carlosbarrios.html
worth noting that this topic cuts through the whole Abrahamic complex - Christians took this prohibition seriously until the Renaissance for instance, fundamentally stalling the emergence of capitalism. Since interest is in a real sense the most pure expression of capitalism, the forbidding of usury/riba hugely important IMHO, even if it only serves a symbolic role (financial jugglery can usually get around formal bans on interest, changing it into 'profit sharing' or some other mathematically indistinguishable but legitimate alternative)
Posted by: nick at January 29, 2005 09:19 AMreza:don't worry, no-one is more lazy than undercurrent ;)
good point nick, given that there are always routes around, it is more of a prohibition on the "social existence" of self-feeding currency than on the actual process. "Mathematically indistinguishable" interesting from a pop-numeric point of view.
u/c - spoke to a Chinese Malaysian about this issue - as a functioning economy (even a 'tiger') Malaysia's banking totally takes the piss in terms of exact isomorphic replication of Oecumenic financial norms ('Islamic banking' not even compulsory there anywhere) - she described the whole topic as 'a fraud' without any real content, but doubt whether that would hold in more backward (theocratic) economies (Pakistan, ME)
Reza - found article on Quranic economics absolutely preposterous (poor Pakistan to have such 'experts').
The way you + u/c have set this up in terms of chronopolitics seems exactly right - read somewhere (lost ref.) that the problem theologically seen with usury is that it extracts profit out of time itself, with time 'belonging' to God (so it represents a direct economic exploitation of the divine)
15=COUNTER-COINAGE
Ulrich von Beckerath
wrote a big article (published in 3 languages, geneva 36) on the overlapses between insurance and coinage, credit, etcetera; at my site and at reinventingmoney.com
Posted by: piet at January 29, 2005 11:42 AMReza, regarding note 1: chronicoprolithical goldfever smeerpoets
Posted by: piet at January 29, 2005 11:46 AMnick: prep us to rise and contra dick tory
When Allama G. A. Parwez (1903 – 1985) published his well-know revolutionary book – Nizam-i-Rabubiyyat – in 1995, the traditional group of religionist caused a terse and strong commotion against it.
Since this monarchical system and capitalism are the two aspects of the same coin -these two are supplementary and complementary to each other -the capitalism is thought to be exactly at par with Islam. The Quran’s System of Economics Allama G. A. Parwez had presented uproots the capitalism.
work I sorta sighted sited and above here, halfassedly cited uses the history of economics/coinage in persia by the way .. .
crazysytes has seen fit to enhance my introductory pages
Posted by: piet at January 29, 2005 12:08 PMpoor pakistani proofreaders aint makin any moolah or how does that slipslapslop spell anywise?
Posted by: piet at January 29, 2005 12:10 PMhey no rite hinger, you posted http://home.no.net/karl24/paths16.htm
nice colours here and there but . .. .
a rite is an empty gesture that vainly and with painstakingly choreographed dignity substituting for the patience that ends the weightwait quickly suffers the illusion one can spruce up lock- block- and emptying product
"prime al = 15?" - i was trying to figure out how you got 15 = COUNTER-COINAGE. i'm using GemCalc which has a Prime AL table -- have no idea what it is.
http://mysticalinternet.com/software/cag.htm
Posted by: northanger at January 29, 2005 12:27 PMpiet, if you find yourself inside a box, how would you escape from it with as much velocity as you could muster?
hate this waiting! i crave normalicy.
Posted by: northanger at January 29, 2005 12:31 PM>with time 'belonging' to God
LOL! these theo-cases certainly have humour, if not modesty, on their side :D
and i hate those who get a sick kinda pleasure watching people squirm in front of the roman lions.
Loved those Roman lions - evidently didn't keep them mean and hungry enough
Posted by: nick at January 29, 2005 01:16 PMNick,
>>> found article on Quranic economics absolutely preposterous (poor Pakistan to have such 'experts').
lol ... I described this article as 'crappy' (which of course is very polite) in my original response to u/c. However, it introduces the economic verses of the Quran. BTW, Parwiz book is sometimes engaging; this is a very poor review on his work. Haven't found an English translation of the book but I guess there should be one. Yes, this Time / Interest issue is absorbing me right now; IMHO, Ilinski (Physics, Geography, Economics), Sornette (Geopathology, Economics), Mirowski and Bernstein are four key economists in regard to this topic. (also should mention Schumpeter's work on interest)
going to new york on monday. going to go to the ny public library and snub those silly lions.
http://www.nypl.org/pr/lions.cfm
patience & fortitude are dubious qualities.
Posted by: northanger at January 29, 2005 01:23 PMi'm going to stick a piece of paper on the left lion saying NICK.
Posted by: northanger at January 29, 2005 01:24 PMi'm going to stick a piece of paper on the right lion saying REZA.
Posted by: northanger at January 29, 2005 01:24 PMReza - yes, it's crappy for sure, but also 'interesting' in a ghastly way. Found this section quite revealing:
"10. Allama G. A. Parwez (R) had also told that ‘Interest’ -Riba -was not the name of any specific form other than the capitalism. Riba is actually a Quranic term for capitalism. When the Quran said ‘if you do not refrain from Riba, consider it as a proclamation of war against “Allah and his Rasool”’, it was actually meant that the Economics System of the Quran and the Capitalism (Riba) were diametrically opposite to each other. After the incoming of Islam, maintenance of Capitalism (Riba) is a rebellion against the System of Islam. Riba (or Capitalism) means interest on the capital what ever be its form. Therefore, every kind of interest, profit and loss sharing – Muzaarbat, or Muzaari’at (share of land-produce or mortgage of land) are all but the different forms of Riba and are equivalent to mutiny against the Islamic System."
- made me want to rush off to buy some Citibank stock
happy weighting to you and mind the bux shut through the billy gates of heathen
http://www.sweetsassyass.com/sassPoetry.html
this place has a bad case of linkrot since last visited over a year ago. this internet knot has gone from gorgejazz to gordian
Northanger,
>>> and snub them both! hateful creatures.
lol ... why?
Posted by: Reza at January 29, 2005 01:30 PM--(moved from the wrong thread)--
Nick,
... i have read the original passage in Parwiz book.
Posted by: Reza at January 29, 2005 01:31 PMwhy? why? you know why. gang of 666 just got one more i see.
Posted by: northanger at January 29, 2005 01:32 PMfirst part of public insurance and compensation money
... on this System by Ulrich von Beckerath, Berlin, 1938 ... let us confine ourselves to
Iran ohich during ... had for some time seriously considered migration to Persia. ...
members.tripod.com/~poetpiet/guest_appearances/ public_insurance_and_compensation_money.htm - 61k - In cache - Gelijkwaardige pagina's
the 'ohich' is a scanning mistake that slipped past my eaglin' I in 99 or so
Posted by: piet at January 29, 2005 01:43 PMnorthanger - no doubt after a good snubbing they'll see the error of their ways
Posted by: nick at January 29, 2005 01:43 PMpiet needs to (1) get off tripod, (2) stop reminding me off somebody i know, (3) send the last link again
Posted by: northanger at January 29, 2005 01:49 PMreinventing money: the emergent path toward peace, harmony, and equity.
Posted by: northanger at January 29, 2005 01:52 PM"the 'ohich' is a scanning mistake that slipped past my eaglin' I in 99 or so" - sorry piet, but that totally ruined the whole experience for me ...
Posted by: nick at January 29, 2005 01:53 PMnorthanger,
reza, i have a question?
what?
plus, i have not forgotten the piece on Kaveh ... will email it to you in the next few days.
Posted by: Reza at January 29, 2005 01:57 PMAQ 353 = REINVENTING MONEY = CHARACTER OF THE DAGGER = NOT TOO COMPLICATED = TERRESTRIAL ORBIT
Posted by: northanger at January 29, 2005 02:15 PMAQ 357 = ULRICH VON BECKERATH = CYBERNETIC CULTURE = SIGNS ARE ARBITRARY = VENUS OUT OF ORBIT = SECURE THE OBJECTIVE
PRIME AL: http://members.a.o.l.com/esotericnumbers/private/matrix2.html
Posted by: northanger at January 29, 2005 03:07 PMTHE MIRE *A TRACT of SOFT WATERLOGGED GROUND, A MARSH, BOG, MUD and SLUSH! IT CAUSES "WHATEVER" to STICK FAST! THOSE who do NOT HAVE SPIRITAUAL TRUTH are said to be "IN THE MIRE"! INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, "PIGS LIKE THE MIRE"! COULD THIS BE INTERCHANGEABLE with THE WORD "PAGAN"? (Complements of S.M.M.)! Read #112, #165, #277, #133 #336, #305!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.mysticalnet.net/gematria/lookup.php?system=gon
you owe it to your nick to put your glossflosses on stave off and stirskidaddlepaddle into my tripodian dire ire antidote gyre wire
Posted by: piet at January 29, 2005 06:23 PMhttp://dialogic.blogspot.com/ free books if you review 'm
Posted by: piet at January 29, 2005 07:54 PMThivai Abhor at http://dialogic.blogspot.com/ posts a reconstruction addie 'free books if you're kind enough to review 'm.
Posted by: piet at January 29, 2005 07:57 PMNeither the Islamic nor capitalist/interest Systems can be, in themselves, opposed to one another. Both are, inevitably, necessary 'economic' functions which operate Within the construct itself - and can easily be related to other, more fundamental, ontological concerns. The key difference between the two is that the 'pure Islamic system' operates so as to level (Tellurian desertification) the ability of any form Within to solidify as the Real. The capitalist/interst system revolves around this very understanding of the egoic self (little s) being permanent, separate, and isolate which seeks to usurp the 'position' of the Outside Self (big S) which cannot be equated with any one of the 'little I's' running around thinking they 'are' -- when they are 'not'. ;)
Posted by: Valkator at January 29, 2005 10:10 PMIn addition to Parwez's work, here's another book by Nabbani of Hib ut Tahrir fame which may be useful. It's in PDF.
The Economic System of Islam
http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org/english/books/pdfs/economic_system.pdf
Valkator - while attributing an intrinsic doctrinal principle to capitalism is a very popular pasttime, i really can't see the plausibility. For instance (in your example) why does the operation of interest - simple exponential increase of money through time - 'incarnate' any doctrine of souls, individuals, permanent beings, or any other kind of metaphysics?
Capitalist 'agencies' are extremely flexible, and get more flexible every year - if the Borg arrived on Earth they could quite comfortably 'do' capitalism by registering themselves as some kind of legal person - modern companies are complex collectives each counting as a single 'person' (while retaining many other stacked and overlapping identities) - ditto NGOs, governments - in fact identities are being utterly artificialized and mnultiplied to accomodate polyspecific functional circumstances - i have total confidence that the operative machinery of personal identity in communist or islamic societies are at least as rigid and densely coded as those in a modern (partially) 'capitalist' society ... so i just don't buy it ... especially since this mode of metaphysical categorization of societies so often leads to ridiculous 'social critiques' from power-crazed philosophers that are actually nothing more than flaky theories about 'the subject' ...
subject here is flaky, any and all of 'm are by definition so I I don't see how you couldn't call the best theorizable practise to flake, frict fract n cleave those that can most profitable be so treated (be(c)leaved ((into being leaf)) and unfoldiated, rock to wit if you're speaking of a move that moves ((extremely stable and substantial subjects)) from lowest to highest state/activity = highest to lowest potential) flaykey
Posted by: piet at January 29, 2005 11:48 PMGON1 89 = STIRSKIDADDLEPADDLE = ICY CATARACT OF DEATH
http://www.mysticalnet.net/gematria/lookup.php?system=gon
this thing won't upchuck contents for glossflosses
Posted by: northanger at January 30, 2005 12:49 AMnick said: " I have total confidence that the operative machinery of personal identity in communist or islamic societies are at least as rigid and densely coded as those in a modern (partially) 'capitalist' society ... "
-- two sides of the same 'coin' -- as was stated.
"so i just don't buy it"
- See??
Posted by: Valkator at January 30, 2005 05:22 AMValkator - i'm old enough to remember this symmetry lark being attempted viz communism/capitalism - 'US and USSR both a bit extreme old boy, sensible thing is to find a balance [in the social democratic sludge where the Europeans hang out]' - don't think that nonsense aged well, and can't see why this is different.
Think it's what analytic philosophers call a 'category mistake' - capitalism (in the sense of runaway techonomics, or self-reinforcing antitraditionalism) is not opposable to any specific traditional culture (ie Islam), but only to traditional culture in general, to stable codes and authoritative communities - after all, traditional (pre-renaissance) Christianity was equally 'anticapitalist' in word and deed, except then it was 'the satanic jews' who exemplified the enemy (usury + decoding) rather than 'satanic jews and crusaders' as now ... maybe soon it will be 'satanic jews, crusaders and jihadis' with spiritually pure Bahai's or followers of the next loopy prophet really furious and blowing themselves up all over the place ... ;)
nick --
You're assuming that the system 'connections' I'm talking about are based on a linear relationship. The functionality of the systems, though operating according to split polarities we Within perceive as linear and 'oppositional' are, at their 'root', pro-jects from the Outside -- no-Thing. Mathematic variables and philosophical 'larks' only go 'so far'.
Also, the 'three-way' you mentioned of cap/euro-soc/com are all on the same polar 'side', while the Islamic system, as I'm fairly certain Reza will demonstrate more of, is operating on a different polarity and is not geared toward achieving economic 'utopia' or 'revealing' any-Thing.
Gotta get Outside the box. ;)
Posted by: Valkator at January 31, 2005 03:39 AMValkator - but why do goals matter? 'capitalism' has no explicit goal at all -perhaps its greatest strength
Islam dream of the heavens and ends up in a latrine - seems to me its the latrine that matters (that's what the rest of the world has to live next to)
PS. 'Latrine' shorthand for jihadi-breeding festering socioeconomic backwardness, misogyny, political tyranny, bigotry and impotent hatred - moderated wherever some fresh air of capitalism creeps in (Malaysia, Dubai, Turkey ...)
Posted by: nick at January 31, 2005 05:43 AMPPS. on the positive side, it makes the world exciting for keyboard apocalypticians ...
Posted by: nick at January 31, 2005 05:45 AMAlso, the Abrahamic Monotheisms are essentially one religion (psycho sky-daddy worship) with minor variations - when empowered they all behave analogously (as misogynistic anticapitalist tyrannies, check latrine list) - so why fetishize the latest strain of the disease?
Posted by: nick at January 31, 2005 08:42 AM
"'capitalism' has no explicit goal at all -perhaps its greatest strength" --- hey nick, all the more and better to afflict and effect results, losing no time, it's impulsive, spontaneous, reflexive reptilian (brainstrat(e)) refusal to submit, soulsearchingly agonize and deliberate about outcome and -put that puts out, sink in the slumber of satiation, the sleep that enriches - zippety zap flash the stash flippancy has and takes no time to explicate; transactions reciprocal at most and best, never reaching for the multiple (chains weaves and cycles, instead, the relentless search is on for market segments and niches, opps to sell the patch that looks better than the hemorhaging wound - case in point: after the death of Theo van Gogh a hype of orange bracelets to show your longing for unity and tolerance broke out and caused spasms of transport from raw material mining refining all the way to the refuge heaps that refuse to be contained and stop sloppiness of meanwhile failed success stories) for depth (like ledgerism.org does). This reminds me of the blindness of justice with the scales suggesting she goes by pure weight dry, wet, live or dead don't matter, all bringers of surplus samples honoured since the most telling and impacting aspect of trade is it's weight and transport potential divided and diminished by the effort said transport costs to transport
piet - think i'm on board for this (got a bit lost (as usual) after the first few lines)
Posted by: nick at January 31, 2005 12:33 PMI wrote:
the sleep that enriches . .
addition/insert starts here: (distillates 'credit' fed capital, ((greenery fed prey)) into the venom to do it all over a( )gain) -
. .. .zippety zap flash the stash flippancy
since in my understanding economics starts with conditioning of the soil (doing a demand in return for holding us all up, absorbing and suffering from our impact, the offer that is offensive)I offer a correction to a quote at mmothra:
Chthonic is the soil, the fertilizer, and the dark, primitive unconscious material that can turn the beast into a god.
corrections (methinks) in caps:
Chthonic is the soil, the fertilizer, and the dark, primitive PREconscious material that can turn INTO the beast (and in the event of selfconsciousness rising) into a(n occasional, few and far between) god.
Posted by: piet at January 31, 2005 12:49 PMI wrote:
doing a demand
I meant replying to a demand, a silent demand
doing a supple ply to answer mute demand = chtonitectonic request for a return of the favor to keep the school of hard knocks open
http://mmothra.blogspot.com/2005/01/chthonic-from-beast-to-godhead.html
might as well add another correction:
.. . . deliberate about outcomes and -puts that put off and out, preferring instead to sink into the slumber of satiation,
Posted by: piet at January 31, 2005 01:04 PMpiet - dunno, this 'soil' stuff doesn't really work for me ... (try cash, silicon, genetic manipulation, and a thriving arms industry)
Posted by: nick at January 31, 2005 01:10 PM[can't get blogspot, so the inaccessibility of mmothra's material is a constant source of torment] PS. isn't 'Mmothra' the coolest word ever - even if the gematria is fairly uninspiring?
Posted by: nick at January 31, 2005 01:13 PM151=WARWICK
7=NICK'S AGENDA
7=PIECE OF CRAP
7=POETPIET
7=YOUR STRENGTH IS MY STRENGTH
you're a cwazy wabbit, nicky. you got everybody counting.
Posted by: northanger at January 31, 2005 02:19 PMwanna know when i knew gw was going to win the election?
Posted by: northanger at January 31, 2005 02:26 PMpiet - should have guessed that as a smoked-up transcendental Joycean glossozzlist you'd be good at every mode of schizossiciationism ..
Posted by: nick at January 31, 2005 02:37 PMnorthanger - go on, but better be quick if you want an awed response tonight
Posted by: nick at January 31, 2005 02:39 PMcashed
didn't know they read shakespeare's lovesick reflections on usuriousness (no not Michael Hoffman's recent 'Merchant' comments) all the way out in china (he probably wasn't even born yet back then but his this could have been one of his c(l)ues): http://www.rotten.com/library/imagery/subliminal/currency/
Posted by: piet at January 31, 2005 03:27 PMon tv before the election, saw gw wearing a long-sleeved bluejean shirt. i thought he looked kinda sexy.
Posted by: northanger at January 31, 2005 06:55 PMJohn Frickin' Kerry goes into a bar and sits down (wobbling a bit). The guy next to him turns around and says: 'hey man, why the long face?'
Posted by: nick at February 1, 2005 06:22 AMnorthanger - "lurch not sexy" - ehem, hence the name 'Lurch' perhaps?
Posted by: nick at February 1, 2005 06:25 AMwhy is it everytime i make a slight and entirely inadequate effort, everybody lightens up and starts jokin around? I feel like the king of hearts uncomfortably often (anybody see that movie? Its first scene is priceless: a wooded hill with only a bell tower sticking out above the canopy (set in france).
Posted by: kin gofhe arts at February 1, 2005 08:52 AM
Reza mentioned Didier Sornette and his Econophysical research recently --
In an effort to get this topic afloat again I went looking and found this:
2000-2003 Real Estate Bubble in the UK but not in the USA
In the aftermath of the burst of the ``new economy'' bubble in 2000, the Federal Reserve aggressively reduced short-term rates yields in less than two years from 6.5% to 1.25% in an attempt to coax forth a stronger recovery of the US economy. But, there is growing apprehension that this is creating a new bubble in real estate, as strong housing demand is fuelled by historically low mortgage rates. Are we going from Charybdis to Scylla? This question is all the more excruciating at a time when many other indicators suggest a significant deflationary risk. Using economic data, Federal Reserve Chairman A. Greenspan and Governor D.L. Kohn dismissed recently this possibility. Using the theory of critical phenomena resulting from positive feedbacks in markets, we confirm this view point for the US but find that mayhem may be in store for the UK: we unearth the unmistakable signatures (log-periodicity and power law super-exponential acceleration) of a strong unsustainable bubble there, which could burst before the end of the year 2003.
So, . .. land cheapening UK-side yet?
In Holland prices were steadily driven up by aggressive govt buying (to appease the cry for 'more nature') and abruptly dropped by half when they stopped (not sure when but more pressing problems arose). Land prices are however still hugely inflated for reasons to do with the tidal wave of bits the west generated and everybody thought allowed to tie at least only slightly more tangible token to (add some to their tally too).
Dealing with you guys helps me to formulate what I (in the name of harmony) am up against and/or in danger of. The giant gulf between word and deed makes people likely to look for short cuts.
--------------------
not published
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A decent woman's last resort (fat bank account) has become staple standard and prime criterium for the host of her superficial sisters .. . who not only make much of themselves but can be made many of .. .anytime, unlike those that are to have some taste constellation that ... .. )
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password guessing games (northanger is guilty of it when in 004765 he wonders about the sura with 93 verses since his ilk has made much of 93 with, however, not quite yet, and along this course of enquiry, never quite yet of course, the breakthrough results hoped for. Most movie magic relies on the formulaic and decryptive, granting it the keyposition it won't let go of and do without in any case. Summons, writs . . .what did I say about babylike being yesterday?
http://www.theinsider.org/mailing/article.asp?id=00243 'FINANCIAL UNIFICATION IN THE MIDDLE EAST' - This tiny article refers to IMF documents using the term 'common currency'. What?!?!?!? They are reviving the old canard that started with 'marche commun' in my father's days. People are gonna confuse this megalomania with the community and complementary currency initiatives which stand for causes and goals that are diametrically and dia- everything else, from lect to log and beyond) opposed to them.
piet - [testing] "the tidal wave of bits the west generated and everybody thought allowed to tie at least only slightly more tangible token to" - the Internet boom?
Posted by: nick at February 1, 2005 12:30 PMyups, I was believin in George Gilder fairytales at the time .. .meanwhile I found out that technical feasibility (under a benevolent dictator with well neigh divine powers as famed, prayed to, invoked, called, summoned and what breastsubstitute/follow up have you), is not therefore an easily followed sample, not even for the very mindset that needs little models of its salvation and came up with this one in the first place the split between mind and body, man and woman, open and proprietary fucks up even without trying harder stuff, like trying to cross ethnic lines, haahahahaha!. Sad really.
Posted by: piet at February 1, 2005 01:28 PMcorrection
yups, I was believin in George Gilder fairytales at the time .. .meanwhile I found out that technical feasibility is not therefore an easily followed example, not even for the very mindset that needs little models of its salvation and came up with this one in the first place (nor even under a benevolent dictator with well neigh divine powers as famed, prayed to, invoked, called, summoned and whateverelse and other vocally demanded breastsubstitute/follow up you have heard of but never seen nor been taken possesion of by, luckily).
Posted by: piet at February 1, 2005 01:37 PMThe closest we never came to being completely subject to an all-seeing eye was in the earliest mother-and-child dyad. But this is also when the infant first enters the realm of visibility through the projection booth that lack of motor coordination builds. The outer limits and limbs of our uncoordinated body mass in infancy can only be grasped, often as reflected back by the mother's breast, in the completely projective, identificatory, hallucinatory manner to which we are born. -- The portrait under surveillance with text by Laurence Rickels and Portraits by Penelope Gottlieb - artUS 5/6 2005
Posted by: piet at February 1, 2005 02:16 PMThe Hitler Conspiracy: The Russian Roots of Nazism
Hitler's Secret "Protocols" P.2
General Vladimir Biskupskil, who went on to collaborate closely with Hitler in the context of the Aufbau Vereinigung in postwar Munich, played a leading role in the Ukrainian Volunteer Army. "Conservative revolutionaries" in Imperial Germany and Russia established detailed anti-Western, anti-Semitic ideologies in the months leading up to the Bolshevik Revolution. The largely internally-orientated voelkisch model focused on alleged Germanic racial and spiritual superiority through a heightened capacity to negate the will heroically, whereas the more externally- fixated Russian version offered apocalyptic visions of concrete political struggle between Russians at the head of all Slavs and perceived Jewish world-conspirators.
Early Nazis and the Mystical Connection P.1
Like the mystical inclined author Sergei Nilus, who had played a crucial role in popularizing The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Vinberg viewed Jews as a satanic force.
Early Nazis and the Mystical Connection P.2
Hitler asserted that "liberalism, our press, the stock market, and Freemasonry" together represented nothing but "Instrument[s] of the Jews"
Early Nazis and the Mystical Connection P.3
By the time of Ludendorfrs death, Deutsche Gotterkenninis had become for Nazis a legitimate Weltanschauung. Ludendorff's vision of a totalitarian society unified in the face of external and internal threats was nearly identical to the Weltanschauung of Nazism.
all of the above by Eric Wijnants, a man I cheer on for not all though many of his efforts:
http://sociologyesoscience.com/peoplingearth/
Indigenous Populations: History's Revenge in the Age of Globalization , P.1
P.1, Mutual Contact
P.2, Violent Occupations
P.3, Broken Treaties and the Sex Trade
P.4, Disease and Changing Worlds
P.5, Controlling Landscapes
P.6, Administering People
P.7, WWII of Indigenous Populations P.8, Enter the 21st Century
hey reza, you will enjoy this one I think:
http://sociologyesoscience.com/pop_archeology/
! Case Study: Archeology of the Middle East Today P.1
Levantine Neandertals and the Skhul/Qafzeh humans, Figurines in the Middle East, Mesopotamia, and the Bible as narrative.
yeah, supecially since I am being impolite to what seems to be a lady (rather crazed with teckey tick tock tokenismayhap but in part surely feminine, I mean feminoun
Posted by: putroidpiet at February 2, 2005 12:10 PMpiet - you're disturbing the absolute zero.
Didn't anyone tell you we're in the middle of a die-in performance art piece to protest against Bu$hitler's zionazi KKKapitalism and the crushing of the iraqi people under Hallibrutal "democracy"?
http://www.heartcoherence.com/sequentialphysics/
Daniel breaches protocol!! Since it's his own
allowance must be made, especially since he
branches out in (to me) greater presentability - same old stuff though)
He comes out with far outrageous stuff and has been busier than I thought (what with his big picture show a few weeks ago), the suprise this time (for me) is: In this regard we highly recommend the work of Ernst Muldashev - "Das Dritte Auge, Und Der Ursprung Der Menschheit : Spektakulare Erkenntnisse zur Herkunft unserer Zivilisation"
(The Third Eye, and the Origin of Mankind: Spektakular realizations for the origin of our civilization) - in Russian and German. (phrenology = face reading)
other recent articles: soulinvitation.com/babalon
soulinvitation.com/ark my diagnosis of Dan: a man who went crazy from
being pointed out the dials that controlled
whirring wheezing and wizbanging machines in his
father's electronic gadget repair shop waaaaaaaay
too early -- he now tries to popularize ponderous
pronouncements like: "the golden mean spiral is
self-similarity perfected for wave mechanics -- In
hydrodynamics this is called: 'optimized
translation of vorticity'; it means: this is the
only way for inertia in a line to be translated
into a circle. Since the inertia created by waves
of rotation is the only definition for mass, this
translation is by definition the perfect path from
mass to energy. -- he's always trying to think up
these circular reasoning escape routes, logic with
a twist and curl . .. Here's a beaut: 'making love
visible', order your dial device today!!!! Not.
Old but gold: ""The Middle East is like a hive of bees swarming around their last memory of where there WAS honey. AND they forgot how to MAKE honey. (The blue fire oil produces is an unsustainable substitute for the UV blue fire of genes ignited by bliss . Tantra/ kundalini/ even menopause -blue coooning - are examples of the DNA's wisdom - totally unknown to doctors -that it is demonstrably FATAL to be stuck below the speed of light). The honey is bliss - the skill is charge (compression into acceleration by self-similarity / akin to igniting compassion). The dome of the rock is an old seed for (the necessary recursive symmetry) capacitive charge. Bliss in groups is the only way to compress into acceleration their genetic memory to achieve sustainability (be saved). Their unconscious knowing that if they don't get bliss - they will DIE - makes them ready to kill. (Just like it makes your teenagers ready to die in pursuit of bliss. And the immune system of your teenagers depends on being taught self-empowering BLISS)."
http://www.soulinvitation.com/ark/
I was really grateful to perhaps our best Solar science "Tutankhamon Prophecies" by MAURICE COTTERELL - for noting the solar science behind the FEATHERED SNAKE..
http://www.soulinvitation.com/lifeordeath/completeshow.html 300 image gallery
Here's the opposite, a file with no pictures and entirely political, Seymour Hersh and voxfux extensively quoted
Posted by: pansporepiet at February 2, 2005 01:32 PMBYCHANCE EVEN BETTER!!!!
The 'Matrix' - the traditional Hebrew ( H'ibiUru )
alphabet - was the soul eating design for Jewish
'religion' to feed hapless human souls to Enlil /
Yalweh's hungry ghost - story at
soulinvitation.com/pope . Beware of these fallen
Saraphim 'Nephalim' - 'Flame Letter' worshippers
like Keys of Enoch's Hurtak (who wouldn't know an
Enochian letter if it bit him )- who tell you with
beady eyes that don't unfold - to obey a HIERARCHY
(opposite of fractality) !
Posted by: PLETTERPIET at February 2, 2005 01:38 PMso . . . .the question is, do I dare to . . .. .nay, even need spell me doubt out, can I lickspittle kiss it banned begoned, time is awastin and my black walnuts need putting in the ground .. .
still, I am curious wether there is a hierarchy amongst the manifestations of the golden mean according to the quizpellgospel of my brother Dan?????? Are they all that blissfully weightless equal and shy of high command ????
Posted by: piet at February 2, 2005 05:15 PMO'Reilly is doing what Pipes was already doing, using dishonest, fraudulent means to harass what he considers 'bad signposts, shepherds and assorted paraphernalia near amordican universities.
M. Shahid Alam, essayist, poet, and economics professor at Northeastern University, was viciously attacked, including death threats, last month by several right-wing websites for two essays he wrote ``America and Islam: Seeking Parallels” and a follow up, ``Testing Free Speech in America,” both available at www.msalam.net.
I wrote his U on his behalf:
You are welcome to try begin understand why a man like Theo van Gogh was murdered as an analogy to WC losing his position.
The worldwide fundamentalist polarization at the hands of the masters (so obviously sick looking they can't do it in their own name); puppeting one damn thing after another and now a doubtful, dubious case like Bush around is causing mayhem all over and shedding innocent blood. I suggest you at least stop making it worse.
ps: I will have you note that TvG was a Bush(puppet) supporter (alas he has been forced by the very bad blood Bush(puppetmasters) are causing around the world) to die with that gravevely mistaken illusion, thus dictate the ironies of history to a man who lipserves in two faced fashion (shitting on the family through pollution, clearcut, etcetera on the one hand and doing the bidding of a vengeful god ((the one of madmen, patriarchy's modestly hidden pride)) who stacks stakes higher and higher, turning on his own followers wrathfully and demanding sacrifice, scarific(a)tion, etcetera often as not on the other.
Confident I have set you rite alongside myself now I remain a distant friend nevertheless
Posted by: pp at February 3, 2005 11:08 AMsome interesting dialogue in here between nick and valkator, until piet popped up with self-indulgent monologues. (still don't get it why people continue posting without any sensitivity to feedback)
IMHO there is no 'outside the box' - there is just the box, and capitalism has no pole whatsoever. think what nick is rightly referring to as the only possible opposition is what capitalism rips up in the process of its planetary trajectory.
totally cracked up at the phrase "psycho sky-daddy worship", nick. since time is very scarce for me these days, hence my absence from the blog, keen for some quality .. bit crappy having to wade through so much sludge to get to something informative, thought-provoking or genuinely funny. i'm not advocating blog-policing but you know what i mean.
"jihadi-breeding festering socioeconomic backwardness, misogyny, political tyranny, bigotry and impotent hatred" ... more!
Posted by: Tachi at February 6, 2005 02:58 AMooh. tachi, you've hit my underdog button. i shall go to pletter-pensieve-poet-piet's website & decypher the off-topic babblings of the undecipherable. i shall find true revelancy in self-indulgency. something to amuse myself for a few weeks. either that or deal with undercurrent's growing lending library.
for to babble is to incessantly deal in inconsequential talk: blab, blabber, chat, chatter, chitchat, jabber, palaver, prate, prattle, small talk. Slang : gab, gas, yak. the etymology of babble is BABELEN = AL QAEDA = I CHING.
http://www.panikon.com/phurba/alteng/b.html
Babble - "To Talk Senselessly, Ramble On; Senseless or Irrational Talk." Babble, as a verb, comes down from the Middle English "Babelen" from the Old French "Babiller." The word ultimately comes from the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel, where God divided the people's languages so that they could no longer understand one another.
PP - all i hear in your screech is the subsidence of an unsustainable world of PC-eurocratic illusionism (full of scarcely believable moral equivalences) ... still, can't scrap now, 'cos my comms have been burnt out by a vengeful YHVH.
PS. You really think 'polarization' can be stopped just by being nice? better to push on up to the end of the road ...
Against polarity. No coin, no two sides, no binary dialectix.
Against the "unsustainable world of PC-eurocratic illusionism" too. But what would you say re. the 'un-PC amerocentric world' ... if one can reasonably be identified with any clarity?
In a world where an impossible polarity is relied upon to justify one's own position (put down the other side), and where a position is demanded, ... where can one stand?
Posted by: Tachi at February 7, 2005 03:32 PMTachi accuses me of 'self-indulgent monologues.'
True to a certain extent; I apologize for posting Eric Wijnants, Dan Winter and even a little bit for info on the media flurry examining bonafides of calling western submission to industrial strenght warmachinery eichmannesq.
That said, I obviously spice my contribs here with plenny of links (to other people's work most of the time, even when the link happens to go to my place as I host a few things on my site that happen to be quite relevant to economics .. .and beyond) but I realize very well it is futile to try remind/correct you on my part and gets annoying and in the way of anybody wishing for more "jihadi-breeding festering socioeconomic backwardness, misogyny, political tyranny, bigotry and impotent hatred" ...
that is indeed, not 'nice' and I though I think it is too late and therefore my work in vain (at least for the time being) I refuse to believe that.
As for polarization; one can not do without (crazy word that .. . northanger has gone from the 'numbogroomer' to bartleby's cross-lingual etymology pages, that 's a hell of an improvement I tell ya), only nobody escapes the fact that one's skin has an in- and outside, it takes learning to deal with it, wonderful examples such as exist in homeopathic dosage only deserve hiliting. If you can't deal with binary instability and dynamic you are fated to keep score of less and less instead of accouting for more and more.
ps: achesis, you are welcome anytime.
Posted by: p at February 7, 2005 04:25 PMPP - there is no outside and inside, in the sense that warrants hermetic identity. The skin does not delineate a internal space; one can actually follow the contours of the skin to the internal organs .. its not a matter of not being able to deal with binaries, but in not believing in them. They are a convenient way of navigating through time and space, though ultimately reality is more complex. At least three ...
Posted by: Tachi at February 7, 2005 11:45 PMlook, assuming for a mo it can be directed somehow, where would you rather find the rub is (and radionically speaking, the rub sticks ((and being stuck builds breakthrough pressure; unsubtle example: terrorists set up one way circuits (((binary extremism, get your throat cut and you're a nogo))) and hope to carry their putrid juice destillates on- and into the id (p)reservation) between organs or between rocks?
I bet you haven't yet been able to extend your metavision 'ha! organ mere inskin' into it's overtone and provisioning thing: 'ho how skinful these rocks' (given ((rough up soak and weather)) time) = single cell protoplasmic (primal, primary and precedential) organ material
Posted by: ploytpiet at February 8, 2005 09:10 AMpiet, haven't got a clue what you are barking on about, honest.
Posted by: Tachi at February 9, 2005 04:15 AMI wouldn't have bothered to answer (since you can't be bothered to read) but happened to open a file with a relevant passage (perhaps you could try understand the last sentence for starters), you can pomo all the words you want but you can't pomo an electric circuit buddy and don't tell me hermeticism has nothing to do with charge:
Simple Radionics by Robert Dawn:
A Guide to Finding Balance and Protection
Radionics has almost always been somewhat of a jealously guarded mystery, and most people, including myself, have either had to pay a lot of money for very expensive instruments, and then learn how to use them, or have had to join a very tight-lipped and exclusive clique of professional practitioners. In addition to the normal “trade guild” tendency toward silence, the military, intelligence, and mind-control applications of radionics have also greatly contributed to the suppression of the simple basics of this vibratory science.
Very simply, all matter (and Creation itself) is a fabric of energy in various frequencies.** In order to access any level of activity -- mental, emotional, or physical -- one simply needs to tune in to those frequencies. Psychological activities, states of mind, and conditions of the body can be balanced, enhanced, and protected using the most simple of equipment, and just a little know-how. If certain, simple-to-understand, basic precautions are followed, as in any activity, radionics can be easy and safe and effective.
To show you how to do it, is the purpose of this site. You will find simple and inexpensive designs and circuits, and information how to make and operate them. Additional sources of information and equipment are listed as well.
**The modern “vortex” theory of science has gone well beyond the conventional atomic, and even the once-fashionable (among PHDs) quantum theory speculations. It is not necessary to invent or name particles and forces in order to understand, describe, predict, and make use of natural energies and forces. Keely and many others have recognized the basic simple polarities and operations of Nature as being more than sufficient in and of themselves to create useful transformations. So has Wicca, and so have most cultures throughout time. The only real “witch doctor” in the 20th Century has been in the West -- the “commercial superstition” passed off to the public as “science” and ”medicine.”
Basic Cautions
Never Be Afraid, Always Be Sensible
Compensation Rates are used for creating the phase-inverted waveforms of negative conditions, such as diseases, in an effort to compensate for and bring to zero energy those conditions. Compensation rates must therefore be used with great care and constantly monitored. It is always better and safer, whenever possible, to “dwell upon the opposite virtue.” Instead of trying to compensate for tiredness or hate, for instance, it’s always better to use the rates for vitality or love! You can never go wrong with a positive rate!
If you absolutely must use a Compensation Rate, say, for a bee sting or some other crisis, here’s how: subtract each digit of the C.R. from 10. For instance, 7 becomes 3, an 8 becomes a 2, and so forth. Zero and 5 stay the same. Check and re-check carefully to see that it's right. Use it only for short periods, and check it often.
Use only Positive Rates and you’ll never go wrong!!!
Making Claims: don’t.
DISCLAIMER: THESE DESIGNS AND IDEAS ARE PURELY THEORETICAL, SPECULATIVE, AND UNPROVEN. YOU ARE WELCOME TO TRY THEM, BUT YOU DO SO AT YOUR OWN RISK.
Electrical Precautions. Every circuit has two ends, a positive and a negative. You have to know which one is which BEFORE you connect it up.
ps: Rober dawn is a bit of a muddle head (but we go back aways), they exist on my side of our divide too see.
PP - glad the recent wave of derision hasn't driven you away in disgust ;)
Do you have any Eurocratic-pacifist buddies who would actually fight back against the tide of abuse, or is that a contradiction in terms?
Compensation Rates stuff is pure (arithmetically exact) AOE Angelology, but I guess you know that already.
Tachi - 'Polarization' isn't especially about occupying a pole - except for purposes of tactical exacerbation. It certainly isn't amenable to dialectical resolution, except in the most brutal Kantian fashion (shattered against an implacacble futility). Khattak - whose age we inhabit - volupts in the intensity of polar difference itself, as legions of raging war-puppets drown in blood, flame, wrath and senseless slaughter ...
For 'polarization' substitute 'Gog-Magog' at will ...
Looking for a buddyable enough neighbourhood so my books can get some reverent use
out of chancers by and purposeful scholards.
This looks good to me: craigr.com/images/Warwick%20View%20from%20Mound.jpg Is that little shack for rent?
Nick: I am perfectly capable of doing some derision of my own: http://mmothra.blogspot.com/2005/02/reductionism-versus-holism.html check the 3rd comment (corrected / improved / extended version of the 1st) . .. whoops, forgot you can't see it; I'll mail it you
Nick said:
"Do you have any Eurocratic-pacifist buddies who would actually fight back against the tide of abuse, or is that a contradiction in terms?"
Read something really odd about Paul v Buitenen in a weekly, he's the man championed as the independent voice in Brussels (transparant something or other dot this or that; he showed the EU Commisioners up to be petty pocketers and obscurantists a while back); the counterbureaucrat attacked the dutch corporate moll intrigette Neely Smit-Kroes, got rebuffed and behuffed ('where is the proof?'), shut up, sat down, opened a bible?!?!?!?!!?
as for pacifism, I been busy following a deluge of publicity for Ward Churchill author of 20 well referenced works amongst which 'Pathology of pacifism'
dunno if that answers your question.
Posted by: piet at February 14, 2005 04:50 PM"dunno if that answers your question" - sort of cryptic as usual - but that's cool
gripped by one of those gotta-kill-a-leftist-and-gnaw-on-his-liver moods that arrive pretty regularly these days - just hoping you might know some promising morsels up for a interchange of pointless shrieking (if they're dragged out of a coffee shop all smoked-up and defenceless so much the better)
anyway, we're just about to go over the cliff, so it will probably have to wait