Steyn: "CIA analysts predict the collapse of the EU within 15 years...Europe is a smugly irritating but irrelevant backwater where the whole powder keg's about to go up...Europe's problems -- its unaffordable social programs, its deathbed demographics, its dependence on immigration numbers that no stable nation (not even America in the Ellis Island era) has ever successfully absorbed -- are all of Europe's making. By some projections, the EU's population will be 40 percent Muslim by 2025."

Nick, is this hyperstitional in any way? Can't think how, unless Steyn is one of your carriers designed to make your morbid fantasy (read fiction) of Eurocollapse real. Interesting nevertheless.

But I would like to see some more evidence, figures etc on the impending collapse. There are genuine economic crises on the horizon but I would like to see the economic factors teased apart from a general sentiment that apocalypse is immiment. And collapse of the EU is probably not what you have in mind (total economic and political meltdown into warfare chaos). Can you give any more pointers for reading re. the europocalypse?

Growing numbers of Muslims

oops, yes, "Growing numbers of Muslims" - a tad tainted to suggest that Europe is totally swarming with (breeding) radicalized fanatics?

Tachi - this is a giant ongoing topic with zillions of refs - i post this stuff occasionally 'cos i worry people here aren't getting both sides of the story.
As for it being Hyperstitional - IMHO all forecasting is intrinsically related to H., with conflicting virtual futures targeted by occulted technosorcerous wars ...
And as for wanting more detailed analysis, of course - if it can be polytracked with a hyperstitional framework so much the better (i'd also genuinely like to know, what are the Eurotranzis seeing up the road?)

http://www.time.com/time/europe/html/050228/story.html life at the frontline (In Antwerp, the far right is facing off against muslims. Who's winning? BY VIVIENNE WALT)

political and media landscapes thrive on depictions of sterility and polarization
cause they lack the mental acuity and insight.

the conservative, liberal and marxist versions of freedom are all just as monolithically stuck in the impregnable fecundator/protector mode that macho mystery religions have on sale.

yesterday I saw part two of 'the smell of paradise', a docu by 2 ponderous sounding polish filmers who spent nearly a decade in the no(longer )man's (nor much any other creature's yet highly contested)lands between chechnya Qatar and Afghanistan filming in this very sense polarized people (all males). They are traditionally very familiar with patrist psychomechanisms (can boast an unbroken pedigree that steadily worsened the desertification effects) but still used fairly intimate and face to face methods compared to the remote and coldly industrial strenghts that now affect and infect them.

How soon will Flip de Winter see the light, take people like Wessel di Wesseli on board as head idiologues to create jobs and help all the immigrants make the money they need to return home as quickly as possible? Even those who'se roots are only partly in very remote places will ten be happy to make the hi status restart.

Time article: “true Americans.” – of course Time is an advocate of and believer in true americans like all the groups I enumerated above are brimming with belief (psychotic commitment) to purity of one sort or another --- that Americans are the sort of mercenaries and imperialists who take pride in being such to the same extent there is no viable reason to is the reason they point at poor little europe and in that sense, Nick, you’d make a splendid American.

P - "poor little europe" - :)
"Nick, you’d make a splendid American" (just wanted to hear it again)

glocalypse
glowballpoxeclips
globaplocaloops

how excitilating:

The Accelerated Evolutionary Patterning
We Are Entering
anonymous author

In the 1890's Henry Adams became convinced that technology was following a geometric or exponential law. That is, basic advances do not follow a linear sequence such as 2,4,6,8,10 but rather 2,4,8,16,32,64 etc. Terrence McKenna said that there are 64 time scales in the hologram of our universe, correlated to the 64 hexagrams of the Chinese oracle the I Ching. He says that what we call "mind" is actually a standing wave form in these 64 time systems. As the two hyper-universes making up the hologram of our known universe interact in time, "mind" manifests further in our continuum. This means that the quantum bonds of the DNA are evolving faster and faster. We are riding not one but 64 evolutionary waves all mounting toward a cosmic Awakening, something like the Omega Point suggested by the paleontologist Teilhard de Chardin.

So the big question is when are the 64 time scales going to reach their peak in our linear time? Terrence McKenna programmed a computer with the 64 I Ching time systems and the answer came out that everything goes jackpot around the year 2013 AD, exactly the same date predicted by the ancient Maya and many other cultures for "something miraculous" to occur for the human race!

Terrence Mckenna's scenario is dramatic. He asserts that over a 4,300 year cycle from urbanization to the dawn of science, that there is a 384 year cycle in which science has caused more upsurge in novelty than in the past 4,300 years. That then there is a 67 year cycle from the technological breakthrough of the 1940's, including nuclear energy and DNA, to the peak in 2013 where there will be more acceleration than there was between Galileo and Hiroshima. And a 384 day cycle in 2012-2013 when there will be more transformations than in all the previous cycles, a 6 day cycle at the end of that in which things will move even faster and so on, down to a grand climax in which in the last 135 minutes, 18 such barriers comparable to the appearance of life, the invention of language or the achievement of immortality will be coalesced, 13 of them in the last 75 X 10 seconds. That is, in the last 2 hours before a peak we will achieve 19 ascensions of consciousness and power, each one comparable to the passing from sea to land or from earth to space. And in the last .0077 seconds of the Great Cycle, we will pass through 13 more such ascensions of consciousness! Do you need to ask yourselves any longer why you have chosen to come to this dense planet at this time? Hold on to your hats kids. You have bought your ticket, enjoy the ride!

more flower power

more flower power http://www.13moon.com/animation_flash.htm

P - time-compression apocalypticism definitely overdue for introduction, key dimension of Templex Hyperstition (intensive bino-exponential time-implosion). Thanks.

Piety, Ol' Nick, 'time-compression apocalypticism' only *slightly* different than flower power 'ascensions of consciousness' though. Think they are fundamentally opposed prognoses.

Personally go for rock/time decompression – the enlightenment has never yet had its concomitant, delumpage, physical work out acknowledged and implemented except in fragile and spotty homeopathic fashion

http://www.pmac.net/rockdust.htm Know your rock type, don't choose mono minerallic rocks such as quartz thinking they will contain a broad range of minerals. Ask a geologist or your quarry manager what the rock type is and access material which has the consistency of talcum powder. The finer the powder the greater the surface area that can be attacked by soil acids.

http://www.championtrees.org/topsoil/soil.htm The ideal natural form to feed elements to soil is as the insoluble minerals available from finely ground up rocks. To maximize the conversion of rock minerals into protoplasm and plant nutrients, the best strategy is to grind the rocks to powder. This increases the surface area of rock that is exposed and accessible to soil microbes. A normal fist size rock has a surface area of a few square inches, but ground to the consistency of fine sand, the rock has a surface area of several thousand square feet. This means microbes can much more rapidly access and consume the rock's minerals, and thus more rapidly digest them into plant nutrients. The finer the rock is ground, the greater the exposed surface area, and the more rapidly the soil microbes will digest it.

Nick "i post this stuff occasionally 'cos i worry people here aren't getting both sides of the story...i'd also genuinely like to know, what are the Eurotranzis seeing up the road?"

Thanks for the reference for sure. Glad to read around too. Not so sure about 'both' (ie just two) sides though.

Aren't there journos who are cynical on 'the' two fronts? Indeed, is it possible to take an 2+nth stance at all? I suppose this depends on what kind of pragmatic position one can take, politically, economically etc.

Or is the notion of two sides notsomuch about the war but about fates? Is the US's fate redeemable and Euroland's not? Is this because of a link to the approach to the WoT, or are these different fates independent from WoT and more connected to domestic economic and political choices?

In any case, both Europe and the US face the prospect of decline in the face not of Islam but of the rising powers of Asia. The WoT is a distinct issue dividing the US and Europe, but the rising power of Asia is something that faces them both. This is why Asia's relationship to the WoT will be crucial for the US-Europe connection in the near future.

"all forecasting is intrinsically related to H., with conflicting virtual futures targeted by occulted technosorcerous wars ..." Intrigued by this remark, please expand.

Mark Steyn also forecast the end of Iraqi resistance by new year 2004 and that OBL would be found dead. FFS just go direct to Spengler if you want to boradcast this kind of trash.

If it's hyperstitionally effective, where's the harm?

http://debfrisch.com/archives/000083.html

Heh. A jewish lesbian with a phallic tongue if ever i read one

as a teazer I present the second (of 3) comment(s):

What I allege Rabin and Arrow showed (although they did not put it this way) is that allowing "non-linear utilities" but NOT "non-linear probabilities" leads to paradoxical predictions.

Normatively, if you're going to have DMU, you need to have non-linear probabilities also.

This goes against the conventional wisdom in economics and decision science where non-linear utilities are seen as RATIONAL but non-linear probabilities are seen as IRRATIONAL.

Posted by deb at February 8, 2005 11:55 AM

we need to invite this lass over, look, she's got hyperstitional talents:

Mencken published this on 7.26.1920. 7x2x6=84. 84+1920=2004. A prophesy?

Posted by: Deb Frisch at November 15, 2004 10:11 AM

Tachi - (P.s good on polarization.) Wars have two sides, so everyone understands the real hyperstitional fork: Is is a war? (WWIV to be precise). If 'no', then 'multilateralist kumbaya reigns, if 'yes' then 'neutrals' (most loudly and obnoxiously, Old Europe) will come to seem like the Swiss or Swedes of WWII (or Indians of WWIII)

Since the 'reductio ad hitlerum' rule has alsready been broken by some moron, no reason to inhibit myself from saying (Old) European politics basically fascist in infrastructure, with a fragile and unconvincing democracy grafted on by the Americans and other Anglosphere allies after WWII - it's the default option over there, leading both to domestic stagnation (allergy to 'liberal' (Anglo) and 'cosampolitan' (Jewish) market economy) and international infamy (supporting / triangulating with / popularly identifying with IIIrd Reich / Soviet Communism / Islamofascism / whatever other antimarket + antiamerican insanity gets cooked up next)

Rise of Asia is great opportunity for free socieities. Why should economic competition lead to decline? opposite is the case (Japan totally re-invigorated US industy durring 1980s)

more ...

Henry Miller - so he scores under 100% - whaddya want, Nostradmus?

item 112 at debs has a new next door commenter to mine and the link he left will convince you that frauelein frisch and family attracts hyperstitious struts, straps and paraparsables

http://www.no-treason.com/archives/2004/07/27/hello-simon-kittay-disproves-austrian-economics/

or at least tanite anyway

Nick - works by beckerath and rittershausen were dramathically reported to be on Bruening's desk when ousted by Hitler and were thus sent into dormancy but if you're interested in competition it's time to revive them.

piet - thanks for debfrisch (South(west)paw) ref - looks like an excellent site (she even mentions the great Stephen Pinker)
also liked your geopolcalypse ideas - related to Rezoid dust dynamics dontcha think?
AND the Beckerath and Rittershausen stuff looks fascinating ... this is beginning to worry me

He was far better on Loose Ends, when he knew his limits.

Tachi - "Intrigued by this remark ..."
Nexus comprising SF-scenarios, historical impetus, discounted economic outcomes (actualized as current prices in market economies), political prophecies, religious prophecies ... surely at the (dead) heart of hyperstition - think this 'megahistory' dimension of H. requires first of many explicit posts (although '(Islamic) Apocalypticism' line and other elements already touched upon (e.g. Petropolitics) beginning to prefigure important aspects)
As (emergent inhuman) polytics and topic for (pitifully confused anthropian) politics, hyperstition accesses the virtual (future) to wage war against the present - it is highly unlikely, therefore, that it conforms to a single programme or even ideologically consistent set of programmes, more plausibly it is an abstract weapon available to many different factions and strategies (although perhaps escaping them along its own vector of Renomu-type autonomization ('Skynet-scenario'))

Hoping to draw Infinite Thought in - just about the only leftist in the blog neighbourhood who knows the difference between making a case (/asking interesting questions) and unleashing reflex abuse (/shoring-up comforting ego-structures)

She puts great store by logical consistency so I shouldn't bother hanging around.

Nick - "hyperstition accesses the virtual (future) to wage war against the present"

What kind of 'war' are you talking about? Is this *in* the future, or already present? If present, we should be able to draw out the battle lines. Global vs local? Democracy vs authoritarianism? U.S. vs jihad? ...?

"it is highly unlikely, therefore, that it conforms to a single programme or even ideologically consistent set of programmes, more plausibly it is an abstract weapon available to many different factions and strategies"

If the virtual (future) is already a multiplicity of programmes, factions and strategies, then how can you talk of *two* sides to the war? The 'vs' I mention don't seem to add any value to the discussion, since it seems the site of conflict is already multiple and cross-cutting.

Tachi -
"what kind of war?" - depends on the agency considered, you already point to a number (of interlocked) possibilities. Main thing for now is to recognize that such polemical architectures exist and thrash them through, rather than mouldering resentfully in the collapsing ruins quasimarxist utopianism or relapsing into an indolent conservatism blind to potential historical catastrophes of unbounded radicality (artificial Armageddon, Shoggothic insurgency, Pest incursion ...)
To rephrase the question: How does the agitation polarize? That's where strategies are at work, with various forces attempting to re-install the marxian class war model ('antiglobalization'), the vichyesque eurofascist 'third way' ('antiamericanism'), Jihad ... seems to me these are all 'Anticapitalist uprisings' of various kinds ('reactionary spasms' in my book), but don't want to leap to hard conclusions (hoping, probably in vain, for a discussion on the subject).
Every hyperstitional megasystem has to bring its own way of war along with it, since by accelerating the consolidation of a particular future it inevitably dispels numerous others, with those that fight 'back' providing enemies (and effective enemies necessarily mobilizing technosorcerous powers).
Personally, i want my tentacles back, and don't see anything other than Oankali arrival (improbable) or the most ruthless technocapitalist species mutation offering that ...

VDH on topic:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006350

Tachi PS. Apologies if post above gives impression i'm barking at you, that's an illusion attributable to the goyaesque phantasmatic leftists flapping perpetually around my head (and receiving just enough sustenance from our visiting trolls to reproduce themselves)

Excellent feedback and references as always Nick. Would pay you a handsome sum for your bookmarks ;)

Whilst this topic may be only tentatively related to Hyperstition for some (note lack of other contributors in the thread, save Piet, who is sprawling himself all over the blog), I do think marco-H is as important as micro-H, from the PoV that the planetary stage is really the only stage right now.

The planetary scale is the key scale from my PoV, and the emergent picture is riddled with hyperstitional lines that are converging hyperstitionally themselves - China's rise is one of the best examples of a hyperstitionally emergent reality, and how this is locked into other hyperstitional entities - anti-americanism for example - is really yet to be seen.

Jihadism, WoT/"anti-jihadism"?, anti-U.S.ism, anti-globalization - all hyperstitional 'systems' as you put it - strangely mostly "anti" something - all involving a fuelling, or hyperstitional creation, of enemy entities. Which is why China - and India - are especially interesting, since their ascension is hyperpositive.

Coming back to an issue pertinent to hyperstition in general - what wouldn't count as a hypersitionally emergent entity?

Tachi -
"what wouldn't count as a hyperstitionally emergent entity?"
this question potentially very productive - IMHO 'emergent entity' already opens the space for a hyperstitional approach, whatever the specific domain, since what is at stake is the precipitation of a virtuality, with attendant 'hyping' or 'boosting' vs negative counterparts, dependent on the agencies/strategies engaged.
Technocapitalist globalization hypersensitizes these events, since economic/information flows accentuate the process - no one any longer thinks 'hyping' is simply reducible to captivation by an epistemological false belief, since the investment generated has at least a measure of 'self-fulfilling' nonlinearity.
Take a simple example: people buy into the Europe-going-to-hell 'story', investment and tourism fall, emigration of skilled workers rises, suicide, disabling depression and alcoholism increase, Al Qaeda decides to seize the opportunity ... demoralization (by an impending 'future' or efficient scenario) hastens the outcome that was forecast ...
Of course, these hyperstitional / feedback / templex dynamics operate within complicated and constrained circumstances that make any notion of 'bending reality to the will' highly problematic ('fascist epistemology' according to Sauceruney (spelling?) on PKD), markets are corrected by reality when the wander too far into delirium while ideological dreams + fanaticism rarely triumph against resolute realism. However, such nonlinearities indisputably occur, with advertising, PR, promotion campaigns, cultural agitation, propaganda, psy-ops + associated fields of activity existing solely because persuasion makes a difference, 'voodoo death' does happen, social prestige boosts physiology, beliefs are causal factors ... IMHO the most common 'hyperstitional' effect is an exaggeration of certain deeply rooted trends, leading to catastrophic collapse and other such 'tipping point' phenomena by introducing excitatory nonlinearities that intensify/accelerate the trend - for instance, when a regime after reaching a point of unmistakable but sedate decline is stricken by relatively sudden mass libidinal disinvestment and 'implosion' (the European near future?)

Also on Euro economy:
http://www.techcentralstation.com/030105D.html
- concentrates on macroeconomics, where the microeconomic story ultimately far more important, but point it makes about the US trade deficit interesting and contra CW

hey antipodian heaperstichionettes
http://indymedia.org.nz/feature/display/25623/index.php

piet - NZ is Australia's Canada

oops, dropped a stiTch there

Nick - your 'simple example' is useful, and honestly think what you have written today has a value for anyone interested in H.

Re. non-H emergence - think there is scope for distilling true hyperstitional emergence from non-hyperstitional emergence. How would this be done – or what would make this possible?

The emergence of new organizational structures - biology, geology, for example - from lower level strata do not seem to exhibit the hyperstitional dimension that technocapital does.

I think there is a case for the view that hyperstition is not just a motor (or, better, mode) of reality production, but is a product itself - i.e. a singularity with space-time coordinates.

Otherwise, all emergence would be seen as hyperstitional. But how would you formulate the evolution of bacteria into sexually reproductive organisms in hyperstitional terms? How would the original emergence of language in human beings take advantage of hyperstitional strategies?

If there is a difference between H as a producer and as a product? This may just be to recognise H as an mode of reality production which itself emerged.

Which brings us to the interesting issue of human agency. It would appear that though H does not depend on individual agency – ego – it does nevertheless depended on the human species for its summoning in the world of social organization associated with technocapital.

I'm here, snooping in the wings. Give me a bit, just got up (yes, I know how late it is).

Tachi - need time to process your q.s
'Time' is the issue, and my rotting subbasement of fungal heideggerianism needs thoroughly cleaning out before risking a response ...

infinite thought - yeeeaghhg (Dean-style)

Might return to our unfinished discussion from the Gog/Magog post here too, as similar enough to warrant resurrecting like a dead crow I think...

A lot of my questions would be similar to Tachi's, though probably not the Hyperstitional ones (although I think am beginning to get a grasp on what you all mean by this).

Not going to ask you why you think Pinker (bad Chomsky+bad Darwin=toss) is great, but am intrigued as usual by the end-times scenarios and the projected machinations of the big three: Islam(no state!)-US-China.

Was having a conversation the other day with an ex-leftist professor, let's say, and he posited two futural (hyperstitional?) claims regarding China:

1. That, as in one of Nick's scenarios, Chinese people buy into the Europe-going-to-hell 'story'. Literally. Instead of investment and tourism falling, though, Europe becomes a giant theme park for Chinese tourism (assuming holidays get upped) - you can't put a price on history, especially when it's over.

2. That China will kill my grandchildren. At the point at which he said this, he was fairly drunk (pre-empting the depressed alcoholic old europe path, no doubt). Is this really right I wondered. If they can eke out a humble living pretending to pack boxes in a fake tourist factory village for Chinese visitors, then that wouldn't be so bad.

But if Europe really will be the united states of Islamia (though muslim pop currently seems to be about 1.4% of UK and 2.8% of Europe, though don't tell me.. there'll be some massive population explosion + huge immigration - yeah right, have you seen what we're up to in this regard lately - in the next few years - yet my muslim students seem eminently convinced that they'll grow up to be successful western-style business folk with little time to procreate, but that's by the by), then will the Chinese really be happy to visit? Or will they just purge the place and leave the pretty churches and dinky high-rises empty, the ghost of Europe past? Or breed authentic Italians, Spaniards, Irish and so on in specialy constructed labs to work in these places? Um...wait, will come back to this....

IT - interesting nuggets for thought. Can well imagine Europe becoming a Chinese-tourist mecca, though not sure how this squares with q. of actual immigration and muslim population explosion. Don't think the Chinese give a flying F about muslims, but sure the noveau riche Chinese romanticise all things European - fake vineyards, 'chateaux', all being built in China right now, plus 'classic' style homes, interior furnishings etc all totally 'in'. So seems that there is still plenty of ground for China and Islam to meet, not mentioning in the Western regions of china and in Central Asia.

VDH
The Europeans worry not just about American muscular idealism usurping their prized role as the backroom moral arbiters of globalized society.

you know, i am about to give up on you Nick Land, how can you seriously offer a link by muscle bound mentalitis suffering delusionals like VDH??????? Look at what he writes!!!!!!!!! Compare to what the actual muscle in question wreaks:

an article about depleted uranium mostly
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ijccr/message/3417

He added, "Out of the 580,400 soldiers who served in GW1
> (the first Gulf War), of them, 11,000 are now dead! By the
> year 2000, there were 325,000 on Permanent Medical
> Disability. This astounding number of 'Disabled Vets' means
> that a decade later, 56% of those soldiers who served have
> some form of permanent medical problems!" The disability
> rate for the wars of the last century was 5 percent; it was
> higher, 10 percent, in Viet Nam.

why doesn't he admit being a nazi!!!!!! An ideal that involves clean upright home and hearth admirerticketsalesmanshop - great, where have I heard that before and which hippies do they have to rob this time?

I mean, he really manages to put everything backsideupfront, the fundamentalist's dirty little secret can only be faced when the not quite enemy but certainly mere former ally is accused of using such despicable deceit.

". . . . . yet red-state America is no longer afraid of the suave wizard's booming voice and image on the big screen, but instead has spied out the tiny functionary with his ridiculous levers and dials behind the curtain at the side."

Now, I've wasted a whole day on right wing assholes already and it turns out I didn't really save the best for last.

ps: this (ren voice): idiot gets published in the dutch dailies occasionally too. The main reason I just stopped reading them.

all this Hanson militant proves is that schizophrenia is a mental lubricant the devil gives in exchange for your soul.

oh, and that other link isn't much better if you can believe Dennis Perrin (i can):

Our old friend Peter K. provides the below link on his hero worship site:

The author is a liberal contributor to FrontPage and a fan of David Horowitz -- part of Hitch's (and Peter K's) crowd. Read it and glory in its star spangled simplicity.
DP

infinite thought - response delayed mostly until i get into work - guess you'll be asleep again by then, but:
Pinker - definitely going to have to slug that one out sometime (have you actually read the guy, rather than denunciations by lying PC pricks?)
Muslims - lots of interesting demographic debate potential (i'm genuinely unclear about the picture, and even sympathetic to idea that next gen. 'Bush-Muslims' will be better democratic capitalists than 'native Europeans'). Nevertheless, find your figures implausibly low, and think multicult-bureaucratic dishonesty of panicking govts should be factored into calculations (if only to widen zone of uncertainty)
China - scary to world i know (maybe 1.6 billion pop (ignore official figure), 10% annual growth, incredible determination, fairly passionate ethnic nationalism, and weird culture foreigners find hard to understand (what, no God?)). Under current circumstances though (State WMD in other hands - without which how the hell could Eastern Russia NOT become Chinese?) it's hard to see how implicit power gets practically transformed into actual dominion - so rise of Chinese superpower going to be extremely interesting on theoretical grounds. Total Eurodisney idea kind of cute, so long as its not radioactive ...
Tachi's point, China + Muslims, too intrictate, multilevel and conflicted to respond to immediately

Piet - what the hell are you rambling on about? you don't really believe that depleted uranium bullshit? if so, you're beyond the reach of scientifically informed reason ... (just try UN steeenkin' agencies on the subject for dogssake).
Also read 'Carnage and Culture' before dissing Hanson - the guy actually knows stuff ...

good stuff here - unfortunately back to sleep again (fuck the human OS, as someone else probably wouldn't say). But yes, have read a fair bit of Pinker - liked his stuff on language for ages until I realised it was based on a total misunderstanding of Darwin and populations: most people don't like Stockhausen therefore Stockhausen is bad for the brain..therefore, er, procreation...just nonsense. I dunno who these 'lying PC pricks' are, but I doubt I read them! their prose is probably not nearly inticing enough. I'm not anti-evolutionary psych at all, but when it's totally arbitrary and reactionary via bad reasoning I just can't read it any more.

Got the muslim figures from pro-muslim websites, so doubt they were underplayed. Am perplexed by the somewhat hysterical 'they're gonna breed!' rhetoric of that guy you posted - it just seems motivated by reasons other than the realistic.

But like the idea of 'scientifically informed reason' a lot. I'll be back, just have to 'nail' this next chapter and then I'll be hyperstitionally free..woohoo...

pinker the crimson stinker: http://debfrisch.com/archives/000105.html

Madam Curie didn't 'believe in it either but ... remind me . ..how did she die again?

piet - your last one is absurd even by your dadaistic standards, but then why let the fact Curie never came within decades of depleted uranium get in the way of a cheap shot?

US economy:
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20050301facomment84201-p0/david-h-levey-stuart-s-brown/the-overstretch-myth.html

infinite thought - haven't read much Pinker yet, just The Blank Slate, but so far it's a torrent of interesting ideas, tentative scientific rationality (largely the hypothetical mode with lots of space for opponents), polymathic references (with all i recognize treated admirably) + devastating (but scrupulously underheated) exposure of the stalinist blank slate mafia (supercilious 'PC pricks' such as the Roses and their howling student stormtroopers) who have attempted to violently shut-down free enquiry in the field ever since EO Wilson outrageously proposed that humans are higher primates ...

On demographics - i've not got any sympathy with decadent populations heading for extinction with "the evil savages are breeding, the horror, the horror" on their lips - but that doesn't mean i think the topic is unimportant, being dealt with honestly, or that your interpretation of probable bias on a 'pro-muslim website' is anything other than perverse

I did warn you.

infinite thought - "this next chapter" ??
been told i've been 'barking' - apologies if true

BUSH = (yet a goddamnother) 86 (which Northanger knew last October ...)

Pinker against the 'stalinist blank slate mafia': he gets this mostly from Chomsky, I'm afraid, whose attack on empiricists and behaviourists has persisted since the 1950s (funny, I had you down as some kind of odd libertarian/ behaviourist hybrid - if this is possible - don't be offended!). I suppose you recognise the Chomsky influence - but Pinker goes too far in drawing unwarrented conclusions from the minimal conclusions about language drawn from his work - for example, giving all manner of spurious reasons for the unpopularity of atonal music - 'our brains like harmonies'!

Next chapter - of my thesis. I am not going to tell you what it's about, otherwise you truly will think me 'perverse'. And not in an interesting way.

Anyway, it's still not finished, so can't really say anything today. But when I give it in tomorrow I will return, foreign-policy guns blazing, for more virtual antlering about...

Agree about importance of statistics, will post more about this in detail later, later. Didn't think you were barking - wouldn't matter if you were. In fact I like being offended and attacked as often as possible, it sharpens the blood! It's better, perhaps, when the person attacking me is the other side of the world behind a computer screen.....

‘Pinker=bad Chomsky+bad Darwin=toss’ – IT – where do you get the Chomsky-Pinker link? Can’t see the connection at all – Chomsky has an axe to grind against the American government, and makes his ‘case’ vs the political establishment without any clear or practical alternative; Pinker is lucid and robust about dispelling the PC-mythology that sadly Chomsky is a part of. As for bad Darwin – what do you expect from Charles? He only debunked the greatest PC myth of all.

“intrigued as usual by the end-times scenarios and the projected machinations of the big three: Islam(no state!)-US-China.”– me too – ‘end-time scenarios’ really captures my interest in Hyperstition. Interested though in how you see these three relate.

IT - "Pinker against the 'stalinist blank slate mafia': he gets this mostly from Chomsky, I'm afraid, whose attack on empiricists and behaviourists has persisted since the 1950s" - please elaborate - from what I have read, and confess v. little of Chomsky's linguistics though tad more of Pinker - can't see how innate structures have to be implied from a well-thought through attack on 'social conditioning'.

Talking about Chomsky's limguistics work here, not the politics (he himself stresses that they do not relate in any obvious way). Dunno if I would call Chomsky's politics PC either, but that's another thing entirely and wouldn't want to turn Hyperstition into a Noam debating society...

Well Islam-US-China....who the hell knows really. I'm mostly intrigued by what Nick says as regards their varying fortunes (at least as a starting point). The Foreign Affairs piece seemed to be downplaying US potential collapse, but if China is on the up, and Europe is becoming increasingly Islamic (not convinced at all about this last point, but will return to this later), then will we get to see some kind of monstrous three-headed encounter?...plus, what will happen to all that US debt in the hands of China etc.? And are we talking about economics here, or religion, or what? Anyway, must go for now.

our posts crossed there, and I meant 'linguistics' of course (!)

you wrote: 'can't see how innate structures have to be implied from a well-thought through attack on 'social conditioning'.'

It's the other way round, surely...there's a somewhat simplistic account of the relation between Chomsky and Pinker here (apologies if you find it a bit basic):

http://www.arts.uwaterloo.ca/~raha/reviews/Harris-Pinker.pdf

Pinker goes further than Chomsky cos he wants to remain an evolutionist, whereas Chomsky puts the question to one side, which I why I think Pinker makes some questionable moves regarding the 'use' of certain capacities - sure sign of a bad evolutionary thinker...and his jokes are terrible too.

Just read that review - pretty scathing. Haven't read the Language Instinct, and to be honest would be surprised if Pinker really is that one dimensional - i.e. reducing language completely to innate structures and denying learning etc. From The Blank Slate it seems he is very well aware of the interplay between cultural and biological factors. Still, I'll have to read more and resume this with you another time.

Back to Europe and apocalypse ... Rising tides of angry muslims, increasingly xenophobic white youths, maddening cries of welfare-dependent-minded old farts, declining productivity ...

Nick,

I think all the entities in your anti-capitalist list (Jihadism, Eurofascism, etc.) are not basically restricting the techno-capital; without these anomaly-inducer pests, techno-capitalism is all emptied of its peripheral potential and surface[1]-to-edge (or surface-to-surfactant) transformations, thus falling into the gravitational textum of the core (even becoming an unconventional ontotheologic entity towards terrestrial inevitability of the worst kind: necrocracy of biophilia, or super-survival economy of affordance). In the absence of Jihad’s Napht hegemony (OPEC’s oligopoly or oiligopoly, Iran-Europe’s pipeline paradise, etc.), emerging anti-Zionistic euro-militia, pacifist Marxism and whatever, techno-capitalism has no (hyperstitional) ‘trigger’ to hit autonomy and agitate its ‘polytics of periphery’ which if rests for a certain period of time (becoming stagnant according to the periphery-core connection i.e. ‘levis’ and ‘gravitas’) will be stratified and directly modulated by the core, thus eventually become autophagic towards the core not to the outside (the Babylon Syndrome catapults forward.). In addition, these ‘seemingly’ or ‘so-called’ anti-technocapitalist entities not only prevent techno-capitalism from losing its ‘peripheral agitation’ -- which is the initiating phase required for reaching a radical autonomy: the emergence of the Thing -- but also they forge a schizotrategic blade (parallel to the Z.crowd’s unconventional, not too pleasant strategies) out of each line of movement that techno-capitalism undertakes to resist or devour its enemies; these schizotrategic blades no longer belong to techno-capitalism as a planetary entity since they cut open a broad and diverse path for techno-capitalism (and even all its so-called adversaries) to the outside, the cosmodromic capitalism. Each so-called anti-capital entity potentially offers a new blade to the techno-capitalism for cutting into the outside, forcing it to invent new weapons and fuels.

If schizotrategic blades which cut into the outside ‘unfold’ in this panorama, it is because techno-capitalism has never been radically liberal or even liberal enough to communicate (in the sense of ‘being open to’) with its antagonists, all it can do is developing the survival economy of its own affordance and at the same time (Faraj is right when he suggests that “they are not even liberal, they cannot even afford us”), confusing its own capacity and affordance mechanisms (sometimes affirming and negating concurrently as in the case of petropolitics / napht-nexus), this is why it has sucked into such a Khattackoid maelstrom with Jihadism, and again it is exactly for the same reason that it may eventually reach radical openness, since each manifestation of affordance is already forging, sharpening and envenoming blades at the outside, brewing up its eventual openness as ‘being opened’. It is because of this atypical affordance (economical openness) that schizotrategic blades open / butcher technocapitalism, impregnating it with the cosmodrome instead of letting it rot and succumb into the core-despotism.

Only in openness as being opened, the Outside emerges as the cosmodrome dynamics and not as an object of accommodation or dwelling; The tendency of techno-capitalism in the absence of its ferocious and even pacifist antagonists (before reaching a radical autonomy: whether in terms of rising as a Shoggothic insurgency or radical pragmatics of A-Now) is locking into ontological navigation systems of Survival Economy and the repressing opportunities they offer towards a colonized Outside i.e. lines of escape already softened to form an outside-capturing net. But each anti-capital antagonist involuntarily [2] or through a series of collusions teach technocapitalism a new way to be politically cunning, the most artful but drastically sinister of which is: instead of knitting itself on the Outside through the current con-solidated / individuated (in terms of haecceity) assemblage of the Earth (both governed by the self-fertilizing economy of the grund and Tellurian dynamics or becomings), mobilizing and facilitating 'ungrounding polytics' (or as Craig put it "Erathication") for irreversible conjuration of the Tellurian-Omega as a totally expedient space for positively engaging with (or swallowed by) the Cosmodrome’s “Holocaust of Freedom”.

However, since technocapitalism takes the ‘tactical’ (within the range of anthropoid sensors) lead in this panorama, a certain kind of delusion has been evolved through technocapitalism and its agencies, making them believe that they are the only protagonists of this flight, and consequently underestimating the potential of furious participation with their adversaries. On the other hand, this hegemonic delusion is schizotrategically positive in confining the capacity and canalizing affordance, that is to say, attracting more opening blades from the Outside.

Ok, I know all this needs MORE elaboration but time is short and my ‘losing-the-airplane’ paranoia inhibits me from getting into details. See you all next week.

[1] Surface doesn’t necessarily mean the crust, the ( )hole complex is swarming with vermicular surfaces of all kind, all chemically / politically active (surfactant; the way J. J. Gibson uses the term), turned into cutting edges.

[2] In skirmish-participation, all subjective inputs combine an artificial space based on the transgression (negatively conducted by intensifying affordance instead of reforming it, or making it less economical) of their affordance.

btw, will try to collect all these conversations (emerged here at hyperstition or those left at Dread [of corse, if undercurrent gives the permission ;)]) in one post when i'm back from the trip (IMHO, v. useful materials for further explorations).

Reza - nice to see you in this thread. Think what you are basically saying is that (techno)capitalism systemically thrives on producing, and consuming/subsuming, 'the outside'. At the peripheral zone you say "[e]ach so-called anti-capital entity potentially offers a new blade to the techno-capitalism for cutting into the outside, forcing it to invent new weapons and fuels."

But I would like to question whether there are individuable 'blades'. It seems slightly problematic to suggest that there are individual blades that correspond with the terms 'jihad', 'antiglobalisation', and 'antiamericanism', for example, since all are co-continuous. Perhaps this isn't key. I can run with the general approach - that Capitalism thrives on the development of infolding the periphery into the centre, which produces or expands the periphery. This is in fact Braudel's concept of Capitalism. But I am more interested in exploring what actually *distinguishes* 'blades'.

More importantly, perhaps, I would be interested to hear concrete examples of this theoretical schema: how have concrete antagonist agents colluded, participated, in stimulating Capitalism? I have a problem with remaining in the abstract when this schema is to function as a tool to apply to planetary phenomena. So one question which would bring this discussion to the here and now would be 'in what way has the anti-globalization movement contributed to futhering the integration of trading mechanisms?' This might not be the best question, but then we should ask:

1. What 'blades' can we identify?
2. What would count as a furthering of Capitalism?
3. Can we associate items from list 1. with items on list 2.?

Very interested in your comment near the end of your post about the surface being ( )holey, and therefore the relation with the outside being conceived not just as surface-to-edge (periphery). Still, I think these concepts all need further clarification:

- core
- surface
- ( )holey space
- periphery
- outside

Hmm. I wonder why IT is sucking up to Nick and Co? She's such a slag!

Tachi,

Thanks for the analytic questions, just some 'very' brief and unrefined answers; (un)fortunately, the flight postponed to March 4 (so I’ll be at home for less than 24 hours):

(techno)Capitalism or planetary capitalism neither produces nor consumes the Outside but it smoothes processes whose ultimate goal is interlocking with the Outside. The Outside (or the cosmodrome) cannot be produced by capitalism, on the contrary capitalism in all its forms is the surfacial agitation caused by participation of the cosmodrome with the planetary sphere. [there are some old conversations on cosmodromic capitalism on the H-blog]

>>> But I would like to question whether there are individuable 'blades'. It seems slightly problematic to suggest that there are individual blades that correspond with the terms 'jihad', 'antiglobalisation', and 'antiamericanism', for example, since all are co-continuous.

A possible misunderstanding (perhaps my fault: poorly expressed), the blades do not correspond with Jihad or other anti-capitalist entities (they are not themselves blades) but each one sabotages the affordance of the capitalism (through the skirmish-participation) to summon a new blade (associated with its own internal and exclusive anti-capital machinery) from the outside but they are not themselves blades; they are just different names of summoning. However, at a certain level (when the anti-capitalist entity becomes so relentless in its so-called opposition) we can say each one is itself a blade to lacerate the capacity of capitalism based on mutual affordance, leading it an openness through which capitalism latches onto the outside. [think you should grasp the difference between opening lines of openness (introducing openness as being opened) or schizotrategic blades AND accommodating lines of openness [mutual affordance]; my recommendations: ‘sorcerers and necromancers’ series at hyperstition and A Good Meal at cold-me: http://www.cold-me.net/text/meal.html]

(note: Undercurrent is also familiar with this difference, he can add a lot of helpful details)

>>> since all are co-continuous.

In their polemics with capitalism yes, but not in the internal mechanisms that each one exclusively possesses:

For example Jihad burns in the Napht soup and tactically / strategically works through the pipeline system; the napht-nexus induces certain resisting tactics (frantic search for non-fossil fuels, entering in a war with the napht-sorcery of the OPEC, etc; all potentially move towards invention of new weapons or exposing to new blades of the outside) and stealth cooperation (see pipeline odyssey) within and according to techno-capitalism.

Anti-globalization, negatively but strategically represses free-trade or communication lines as totally economical mutual affordance (for instance the scenario of Dialogue between Civilizations [henceforth: DbC] which reduces the n-plex diversity of globalization to self-reforming mechanisms of affordance between cultures / civilization), thus making the entire connections network a good meal for butchering lines of openness [1] (more working with ‘being opened’ rather than gliberal ‘being open to’ [see ‘A Good Meal’]). Reformist Islamism which has Europolitical anti-globalization tendencies and is highly interested in DbC, either works with Taghieh in communication with the agencies of Techno-capitalism (thus forming the Diffusing side of the Axis required for the Escalating side which belongs to technocapitalism – see ‘Jihad: The Absent Obligation’ and its following comments) or turns into a secular / pacified Islam which finally provokes the uncompromising Jihadism not only to be anti-capitalistic but also running as a fissional process within Islam ('Terror within Terror': here capitalism should invent two distinct heads, one for a direct assault on uncompromising Jihadism and the other for engaging with the semi-secularized, under-Taghieh or Pacified Islam which is highly contaminative for Europe’s politico-economic interfaces and may breed truly hideous offspring: euro-islamist movements which are not necessarily islamic but follow the same islamic guidelines)

>>> that Capitalism thrives on the development of infolding the periphery into the centre, which produces or expands the periphery. This is in fact Braudel's concept of Capitalism.

I didn’t mean a Braudelian model of capitalism despite my reference to periphery / core connection. The peripheral agitation I’m taking about is not produced by capitalism itself (its intrinsic / internal insurgencies) but by unrests and anomalies that emerge out of the skirmish-participation with anti-capital entities. So this peripheral ‘space’ -- which has already enveloped schizotrategic lines (potential blades) of anti-capital entities -- even if reaches the core cannot be captured, grounded, or turned into strata; it engineers a ( )hole complex, making the core malfunctions (stepping out of its governing functions). This mutating techno-capitalism presupposes commotion and cataclysmic excitements from the other side of itself until it reaches and maintains its own radical autonomy.

Will get back to the rest of your excellent questions after returning from the trip.

BTW, re. surface-to-edge. Wait for the updated version of ‘Machines are digging: ( )holey space’ [I promise ‘SOON’].

[1] Every instance of affordance (or accommodating capacity) if developed properly in its horizon can invite the butchering lines (blades) of the Outside, reinventing openness as ‘being opened’ not the survival economy of liberalistic ‘being open to’.

PS. Tachi, I’m not sure but I guess you have missed a few key articles in regard to Islamic chronopolytics and (non) Apocalypse, diffusive Jihadism, and escalating WoT:

Holy War from the other side.
Jihad: The Absent Obligation or the Latent Duty
Islamic Chronopolytics I: the heresy of the apocalypse
Col. West: a renegade delta-trooper or an autonomous machine?

Reza - don't think i disagree, but whole discussion complicated by an inevitable variation or inconsistency of 'subject positions' since the Khattakoid commercium (where antagonistic puppets meet as components of an inappropriable machine) perpetually rejects the anthropian (even 'aphidian') ID-fragments which try to cling to it and delect in its 'transcendental' intensities. Discursive positions are constantly recycled into the fray, thus 'I' will variously slate the 'antiglobalization' crowd (or more importantly the Jihadists) viciously from the 'empirical' position of a technocapitalist partisan, while at another phase of the dehumanization spectrum readily admit that it is only through friction, conflict and peripheral agitation that the machine is sucked into the hyperheated extravagances it constructs itself around (in orbit). Hyperstitional fragmentation into carriers is no more than the explicitly formulated programme for what this inevitable polypositionality and polytics wreaks of its own accord ... of course, you're doing what is absolutely necessary for rigorous apprehension of the topic: 'Think the war as a machine'
However, think (anonymous) technocapitalism holds a privileged relation to initiative, since its temporality is utterly aggressive ('faster, faster ...' without definable limit - hence intrinsic relation to time-implosion), forcing all contestants into a strategically reactive stance (while it exploits resistances to promote further acceleration of the process, drawing down the Thing from out of the future) ...

>>> Khattakoid commercium perpetually rejects the anthropian (even 'aphidian')

But doesn’t it feed (as a transient bond) on expendable anthropian agencies as a cheap fuel?

>>> Discursive positions are constantly recycled into the fray, thus 'I' will variously slate the 'antiglobalization' crowd (or more importantly the Jihadists) viciously from the 'empirical' position of a technocapitalist partisan

Well, that is the way ‘we’ are the puppets of West and Jay: from an empirical position, a techno-capitalist partisan and a shadow-trooper under Taghieh ;)

>>> Faster and faster

Slight disagreement (or perhaps a misunderstanding from my side) on this blind chrono-torpedo and its line of escape (some doubts expressed in Sorcerers and Necromancers series), but can’t open it right now [time is the only thing that I don’t have at the moment].

can't participate in discussions for a week. best, reza

Reza -
"cheap fuel" [tick]
"h. puppets" [tick]
"chrono-torpedo" - didn't mean to imply technocapitalist acceleration amounted to an 'escape' on its own - it's more of a megaweapon ...

think the Autonomization of the (technocapitalist) Thing needs more attention ...

BTW, think from the ‘empirical’ stand point, 'Kaxuži-commando' instead of 'shadow-trooper under taghieh' is more concise and direct. ;)

A mistress of invisibility in any case ...

(Jay i mean)

AQ 500 = MISTRESS OF INVISIBILITY = SHADOW WARRIOR TECHNIQUES

nick, you really must stop. these wonderful numbers are so scrumptious.

northanger - not only exquisite, but exactly on topic ... (you're not feeling sick or anything?)

nick - nope. not sick. wrote another post elsewhere: connection got sidelined for a couple of days. at sister's house right now about to be kicked out. :)

"about to be kicked out" - find that hard to believe (is she aiming to retain her sanity or something?)

oh shut up, lol. i'm outta here. see ya later.

stolen from pearsell
http://onepearsallandhisbooks.blogspot.com/

Cry of the Neocons: "WE WANT EURABIA!"

Or at least, that's the impression you get, that they are desperate for some kind of Muslim takeover of Europe to happen, so often do they chant about it and cheerfully distort the facts to support Bat Ye'or's thesis that Europe is on a course to becoming part of the dar al-Islam.

One thing that I've always found laughable about many of the right-wing cheerleaders for the Iraq War is that while they cry crocodile tears over the fate of the Iraqi people under Saddam elsewhere they engage in completely unrestrained racism against other Arab peoples. This is especially the case with the Palestinians, where you have to hold your nose when you wade through the comments sections of any stories dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict on blogs like Little Green Footballs, and with Muslim immigrant communities in the West, particularly in Europe.

I am hardly an unrestrained Islamophile, but elements of the right have completely lost all perspective in regards to Islam and its interaction with the wider world. There is a vein of current right-wing thought that believes that Europe is so decadent that it is on the verge of handing over the continent to sharia and that fifty years hence all that blonde hair in Sweden will be covered in hijab. To this end I find that many of these American 'conservatives' are actively wishing for some kind of terrible collapse in Europe, into communal war or economic destitution or whatever. Why? I suppose that it's their own childish posturing reaction to the childish posturing of elements of the European left that cheerlead on the possibility of American military defeat/economic collapse. It's ridiculous. Most Americans (and the overwhelming majority of conservative ideologues) are descended from European immigrants, and why these people want their ancestral lands to suffer is simply beyond me.

A classic example of this vein of 'ringing the bells for Europe's demise' is Mark Steyn's column from yesterday's Chicago Sun-Times. Here's a bit of it, along with some comments from myself:

"The president, in other words, understands that for Europe, unlike America, the war on terror is an internal affair, a matter of defusing large unassimilated radicalized Muslim immigrant populations before they provoke the inevitable resurgence of opportunist political movements feeding off old hatreds. Difficult trick to pull off, especially on a continent where the ruling elite feels it's in the people's best interest not to pay any attention to them."

Here's a prime example of the glib fortune-telling about Europe's future that neo-cons love to indulge in. They're just as bad as the multiculturalists who say that everything is ok and there are no ethnic/religious problems within Europe. Is major communal violence within European countries possible? Yeah, considering the levels of outcry against immigration and the rising strength of right-wing populism in a range of countries, it is not off the cards. Is it inevitable? No.

"CIA analysts predict the collapse of the EU within 15 years. I'd say, as predictions of doom go, that's a little on the cautious side."

CIA analysts have a great track record recently, don't they? I'll take that one on faith. Thanks, Mark.

"But either way the notion that it's a superpower in the making is preposterous. Most administration officials subscribe to one of two views: a) Europe is a smugly irritating but irrelevant backwater; or b) Europe is a smugly irritating but irrelevant backwater where the whole powder keg's about to go up."

Bush administration officials have certainly shown themselves to be an impeccably prescient group over recent years, too. Thanks, Mark, I'll go with that one as well.

"For what it's worth, I incline to the latter position. Europe's problems -- its unaffordable social programs, its deathbed demographics, its dependence on immigration numbers that no stable nation (not even America in the Ellis Island era) has ever successfully absorbed -- are all of Europe's making. By some projections, the EU's population will be 40 percent Muslim by 2025. Already, more people each week attend Friday prayers at British mosques than Sunday service at Christian churches -- and in a country where Anglican bishops have permanent seats in the national legislature."

Wow. Where do you start from on this one? Europe certainly has a very serious demographic problem, but this paragraph is so stuffed with misleading statements and outright distortions that, well, I'm not sure how exactly to describe it. Randy McDonald has already done sterling work on the role of Islam in Europe's demographic future that is highly recommended reading, but I have a few general points to make about this paragraph of Steyn's.

First off, there is the ludicrous pseudo-stat that "by some projections, the EU's population will be 40 percent Muslim by 2025". Which projections? This is ludicrous. The current 25 EU states have a total population of roughly 450 million, and a Muslim population of around 15 million, or about 3%. So, how will 3% magically become 40% in the space of 20 years? I'm assuming that he is including Turkey as an EU member in this period. Currently, Turkey's population is just over 68 million, of whom over 99% are nominally Muslim. So, if Turkey was admitted to the EU tomorrow, the Muslim proportion of the European Union would soar from 3% to 16%. However, you can not include Turkey in this figure without also including Romania and Bulgaria, both of which are due to join the EU in 2007, and whose presence drops the Muslim population of a putative EU 28 to slightly over 15%. And this is not even counting predominantly Christian nations such as Croatia and the Ukraine that could, quite conceivably, be part of the EU in 2025. In the interests of fairness, in order to find the total Muslim population of 'Europe' (minus Russia) I added to the EU 25 population the populations of Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Albania, Serbia & Montenegro, Ukraine, Belarus, Macedonia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Moldova.

Ultimately, I came up with a figure of 635 million for these 36 countries, with a Muslim population of roughly 90.5 million, or just over 14% of the total. Of course, many of these countries are not going to be joining the EU in the next 20 years (I certainly don't see Belarus, Albania, or Moldova joining), but I still do not see how the Muslim population percentage can possibly hit 40%. Consider that fertility rates within Muslim immigrant communities have been dropping down towards those of native groups (see figure 8 here), and that many countries, especially Holland and Denmark, have recently been consciously reducing migration levels, and I simply can not see any possibility that in the next 20 years the Muslim population will swell by such an epic rate. It will certainly grow, but it is a bald-faced lie to throw out the 40% figure as a likelihood.

Secondly, mosque attendance in Britain has not overtaken church attendance, it has overtaken Church of England attendance, which is not surprising, because the CofE is a decaying entity that no longer really stands for anything. Catholic attendances are still higher than mosque attendances (although down from what they once were) and African immigration has revitalized Evangelical Christianity in Britain.

"Some of us think an Islamic Europe will be easier for America to deal with than the present Europe of cynical, wily, duplicitous pseudo-allies. But getting there is certain to be messy, and violent.

And there you go. This is something that he wants to happen.

right on //. what is this shit? typical us propaganda too to talk about unsustainable 'welfare' etc. it's like when they get a break from numerology they engage in a little light fascism. wankers

//// - reason neocons are dancing on the virtual grave of europe (realistically or not) is quite simple: according to the basic right-wing outlook on the world (based on incentives at every level), what gets punished is discouraged, while what gets rewarded is encouraged. The idea that europe's treacherous and morally supercilious appeasement-based policies could reap any result but catastrophe is thus considered a repulsive one.

bogstandard too trollish to deserve even indirect response, but his short outburst contains such a compressed gem of ignorant prejudice it is actually something of a masterpiece (certainly if 'fascism' is taken as anything more than a troll fart) - know who invented 'welfare' boggy? didn't think so ...
by the way, 'them' is 'me' (don't think any of the other hyperstitionalists would want to see themselves arbitrarily congregated by a half-wit who can't read a byline)

Yes, of course I didn't actually read any of it! where would I find the time? It's just the general flavour of your discourse Nick, it's kinda nasty. don't like you. but I liked ////// hence the post - no, hyperstasis members are not fascist. I retract that. they're nerds. but their lofty rejection of democracy is quite dangerous I think.

/// - lots of interesting stuff in the text you reproduce, but IMHO the only truly sharp-edged one viz Steyn is the demography discussion, which i think still lies ahead here (thanks for passing on McDonald's name, will check it out). Won't say more on this yet, except hoping a realistic, rigorously informed and open-minded discussion on the topic in prospect.
No one could be more cynical about govt esp. CIA predictions than Steyn, in fact he makes pretty much identical point to this commentator in previous article, so as a fisk-point it falls quite flat.
As for issue already touched upon - why do 'neocons' want to see Europe burning? This sentence interesting:
"Most Americans (and the overwhelming majority of conservative ideologues) are descended from European immigrants, and why these people want their ancestral lands to suffer is simply beyond me."
1) Americans fled from despotic persecution, so the notion of ancestral attachment is far from straightforward.
2) 'Suffering' not at all the issue IMHO (they're 'suffering' now from social decay, pessimism, bitterness and justified suicidal self-loathing). What is hoped for is change in the direction of liberty, and only hard economic lessons seem able to bring that about, since (as our trolls regularly demonstrate) reason seems to entirely disappear when it comes to the sacred cows of Eurosoc.ia.list decadence.
3) Since 'Old Europe' is strategically determined to invest its energies in frustrating US policy, undermining its security, giving comfort to its enemies, inspiring its internal leftist constituency (and thus aiming to subvert its constitutional freedoms, dynamism and prosperity), sabotaging the world economy through CAP-driven trade restrictions, waging proxy war against it in Israel and (probably more through negligence than malice) nurturing international islamofascist terrorists in its cities, it's hard to see how any friend of the US could be other than delighted in the misfortunes of the Eurocratic high command (while hoping they will eventually be replaced by market-oriented vertebrates with a sense of global responsibility).

"BUSH = (yet a goddamnother) 86 (which Northanger knew last October ...)"

oops, missed this one. allow me to introduce you to asteroid Pecker (take a bow dudester). named after Jean-Claude Pecker, former general secretary of the IAU. "pecker" american slang for certain (remaining unmentionable) 86ers. yesterday, Pecker (08Ge39) was conjunct asteroid Helionape and fixed star Aldebaran in Gemini and mapping (using my personal astroschizoity) to the 31st prime (127) and pan-demon Nuttubab: terrestrial electromagnetism. which means that TE = one "hot blooded man".

ok, so our prez likes to take out his pecker & his ruler and prove to all: see, mine *is* bigger!

would love to talk about this as i find it fascinating but don't actually know anything, at all. that's why i used someone elses writing instead of saying anything myself. i decided to give up talking about things i don't know about. i suggest you invite pearsall over as he loves this stuff and he's wel-informed

Are you an ideologue or a philosopher, Nick?

Some of us, Hyperstition notwithstanding, still cling to that distinction.

hi, it was my blog posting that Luka pasted on to here. You can see the whole thing here:
http://onepearsallandhisbooks.blogspot.com/2005/03/cry-of-neocons-we-want-eurabia.html

and the comments (if you want to go directly to them) are here:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/pearsall/110963231177614434/

Nick, you're right. The sentence you've pulled out is the weakest part of my whole response. In the update to my post I agreed with a commenter who raised your first point plus I added "I think that there's also a domestic partisan angle that they are working from. Sectarian/ethnic war and/or economic collapse in social democratic Europe would provide a handy stick with which to beat the (relatively) Europhile Democratic Party. It would give them a banner to wave as they dismantled the final remnants of the New Deal and the Great Society programs. A Europe where, theoretically, the great cathedrals became mosques would provide an intense boost to the siege mentality of American 'muscular Christianity', to the idea of the American believer as a lone soldier in a world overrun by heresy, infidelity, and unbelief."

That's just a quick starter, I'm reading through this thread (there's a lot to take in) and so I'll get around to the rest of your points soon.

hey Pierce all, totally welcome mememan,

found some riveting reads via your latest:

Porn Nazi: The Sequel
Sobaka's Notebook
by Cali Ruchala

The Porn Star Next Door
REBEKAH GLEAVES
a riveting read

bring on the demogravity

City code officers later decided that her business was not illegal because she sent the images directly to a server in Los Angeles and was not doing business in the area. But by then, the public relations damage had been done. Armed with the knowledge that Iwanow was a sex worker, the neighbors' comments became more pointed.
----
"They used to leave Jesus pamphlets and statues on my car," Iwanow says. "They called me the devil, a witch, a slut, and they always called me 'cracker.' A few times, they had Reverend [Thomas] Masters come out on Sunday morning, and they held a church service right in front of my house. They had, like, 40 people standing out there, screaming, doing all their Baptist, Holy Ghost-ing shit."

One day, Iwanow came home and found her Lexus covered in white latex paint, so she filed a police report. On another day the Stubbses say they came home and found fish grease on their house, so they filed a police report. Iwanow found a statue of Jesus on her car; the Stubbses found a voodoo doll and candles on their retaining wall. Back and forth, the neighbors squabbled with each other, always calling the police and filing reports, a total of 141 times.

The Stubbses are black by the way so it is little wonder that via a career in tattooing she slid into nazi's (and vice versa I'm sure); most of them want none of her though since a) she went straight to the top, their flavour music label boss and b) cause she not only feuded but as (un?)happily fucked blacks (the most famous of her 20 born to pornreels).

Which brings me to another deep deep deep dichotomous skiz of amerikanitis: their finger point to problems in order to distract from stuff they have in spates; all they really are saying is: "look youall are just like US, aren't you? Not just a tiny little bit; and so on and forth; the 'we'll drop you like a stone' is in good part a 'take US back' but lets not get the indian hope up too soon.

sighnin off, a longhair in solidarity with females and compatible manhood.

oops, should have been: "look youall are just like US, aren't you? Not just a tiny little bit?"

that music boss isn't white enough anymore, all of a sudden

if she took her implants out one last time and reverts to ribaldry of a bygone age I'll play pierrot to her columbine; anybody up for the gilgamesh rock pulverizer part?

actually no scrap that, anybody who complains about mangos denting her car is totally screwed and doesn't know how to park; shit, I'd be spanning a sheet and a funnel to lay those babies down gently!!! treeripe and all; she was a nazi before .. hell maybe even while she was pumpin black dick and that was a point I made already

Butler's Bimbo by Nicole Nichols is, with respect to already cited articles, need I say it, a deliciously Joyceanic, iow contradictory 'account'.

can't someone kill him?

We are all just prisoners here
Of our own device
And in the master's chambers
They gathered for the feast
They stab it with their steely knives
But they just can't kill the beast

Piet, are you a philosopher or an ideologue? some of us care about the diff.... oops, fell off my high-horse ...

Pearsall Helms - impossible for me to get into Blogspot sites from PRC, so i'll just have to wait here ... already extremely impressed by your tone and analysis

Nick - you can access blogspot sites from the PRC. First go to http://www.fastbot.com/ - then for this particular site search "we want eurabia". The first reference that you see should be the one. Click on "Open anonymized". Voila.

Tachi - thanks

Nick - for some reason the link might fail - esp from anonymized window to next anonymized link - but keep the original fastbot search results list open and work from there again - a pain but the only thing I can think of. Maybe U/C can shed some light?

Why post shit from that fat right wing cunt?

Nick - if fastbot doesnt work try this:

http://webwarper.net/

then paste in the URL into the search box.

hey, neato. webwarper.net provides troll anonymity.

diacritica.com/sobaka/2002/china.html [12.05.02] Banned in China ---- Sobaka Makes the Cut on the Chinese Blacklist -- by Cali Ruchala
(via Pearce)

Must be a trend:
http://www.imperialistlibertarians.info/